15:03 < sabdfl> morning, afternoon, evening all
15:03 < JanneM> as in "it will take as long as it takes to resolve the stuff"
15:03 < seraph> hey
15:03 -!- mode/#ubuntu [+o sabdfl] by ChanServ
15:03 < mirak_-> well, the devs could be out of it in a half hour, but we could keep it going all day
15:03 <@sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
15:04 < kfischer> or more, if i read all the posts properly
15:04 < uman> half an hour ?
15:04 < uman> I thought it'd be on now
15:04 -!- HelloWorld [~Hurricane@a213-22-88-117.netcabo.pt] has joined #Ubuntu
15:04 <@sabdfl> please take a quick look at that page and let me know if there's anything else we need to cover
15:04 < uman> or maybe in an hour from now
15:04 -!- TheMuso_ [~luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu
15:04 < Rocha> HelloWorld, thanks for comming.
15:04 < Rocha> *coming
15:05 < JanneM> looks like a pretty complete summary to me
15:05 <@sabdfl> i expect this will take one to two hours to get a sense of which way we should go
15:05 -!- Deft [~psh103@witch.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu
15:05 < SepheeBear> there's a bouncing cow in Ubuntu?
15:05 -!- plangent [~plangent@12.38.10.94] has quit ["may the road rise to meet you"]
15:05 < uman> lol
15:05 < seraph> As someone from an Islamic country (who is Indian, not Malay or even Islamic) such as Malaysia, I can say that any dress that isn't Islamic in the nature of its modesty will not be acceptable to the government here. In my opinion keeping images of humans off the artwork would be best.
15:05 -!- retuow [~we@082-146-101-077.stat.adsl.xs4all.be] has joined #ubuntu
15:05 < pitti> SepheeBear: a screen saver
15:05 < seraph> Personally I have no problem with it, but ...
15:05 < kfischer> sabdfl - agreed
15:05 < JanneM> SepheeBear: one of the screensavers
15:05 < thom> SepheeBear: yeah, xscreensaver
15:05 < seraph> people here were like OMG
15:05 < Ng> not the cow! noooo
15:05 <@sabdfl> i'll work through that list one item at a time and invite people to comment
15:05 -!- lIoNhEaRt [~richard@adsl-161-208.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #ubuntu
15:05 < seraph> where are the devs?
15:05 < seraph> who's chairing this meeting btw?
15:06 <@sabdfl> i don't want to get into an argument, so this is less a debate than a calling for opinions
15:06 < uman> you could have 3 tuxes holding hands
15:06 -!- jmchugh [~jmchugh@silenceisdefeat.org] has joined #ubuntu
15:06 < pitti> seraph: they are right here
15:06 <@sabdfl> seraph: i'm chairing
15:06 < yfir> i thought this was about the 'default' status of the splash screen, not removing things
15:06 < seraph> sabdfl, shall I direct statements at you?
15:06 < yfir> cow should stay :)
15:06 < jimi> +1 uman
15:06 <@sabdfl> seraph: go ahead, when i call for it
15:06 < crabbox> cows are sacred at India and it might give bad expression
15:06 < seraph> sabdfl, ok
15:06  * seraph sits and waits
15:06 < digitalsurgeon> i have no problem with cow
15:06 < SepheeBear> that cow is awesome!
15:06 < digitalsurgeon> ut i think it was a stupid screen saver
15:06 <@sabdfl> ok, this channel is unmoderated, and i'd like to keep it that way
15:06 < thom> sabdfl: might want to +m whilst you lay out details
15:06 -!- synd|work [~syndicate@nat.edcc.ltu.edu] has joined #Ubuntu
15:06 < thom> ok
15:07 <@sabdfl> thom: ok, just for five minutes
15:07 -!- mode/#ubuntu [+o Keybuk] by ChanServ
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15:07 -!- mode/#ubuntu [+m] by Keybuk
15:07 <@sabdfl> hi all
15:07 -!- Irssi: Topic: -: Artwork Community meeting here at 1400 UTC: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/
15:07 -!- Irssi: Topic: +: Artwork Community meeting here now: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/
15:07 -!- Keybuk changed the topic of #ubuntu to: Artwork Community meeting here now: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/ | Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ | Lists: http://lists.ubuntu.com/ | Bugs: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/
15:07 -!- |radio [~radio@iD4CC042A.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu
15:07 <@sabdfl> we will just moderate for a few minutes while i lay the groundwork
15:07 <@sabdfl> we are going to work through each item on http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
15:07 -!- christian__ [christian@target.tte.ele.tue.nl] has joined #ubuntu
15:07 <@sabdfl> in each case im going to invite people to give their view
15:08 <@sabdfl> but not to argue with one another
15:08 -!- z1nOnly [~nic@adsl-068-016-133-021.sip.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit]
15:08 -!- Bupknar [~bram@dyn-193208.nbw.tue.nl] has joined #ubuntu
15:08 <@sabdfl> we are trying to get a sense of the diversity of views, not resolve the unresolvable
15:08 -!- jg_ [~jg@192.208.47.90] has joined #ubuntu
15:08 <@sabdfl> we'll try to keep this channel unmoderated
15:08 <@sabdfl> please read the code of conduct (link in the wiki page)
15:08 <@sabdfl> please respect that
15:09 -!- simonb_ [~simonb@host81-138-252-211.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:09 <@sabdfl> if someone doesn't respect that i'll point it out to them directly
15:09 <@sabdfl> and if that's enough, will ask the ops to +q them
15:09 <@sabdfl> but i don't think it will be needed
15:09 <@sabdfl> ok, let's go, thom could you remove the +m please?
15:09 -!- mode/#ubuntu [-mo Keybuk] by Keybuk
15:09  * Keybuk pretends to be thom briefly <g>
15:10 <@sabdfl> thanks Keybuk
15:10 <@sabdfl> thank you to everyone who's contributed to the mailing list and forum discussions
15:10 -!- limi|london [~limi@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:10 < Mitario> mvo_, back :) took a while :p
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15:11 <@sabdfl> can i call for views on the distinction between default and available items in the artwork?
15:11 <@sabdfl> please each person put in your views, once only
15:11 < jdub> (might want to clarify the question)
15:11 < seraph> sabdfl, I do not understand the question quite right
15:11 -!- Gallivant [Gallivant@dhcp-ltc-6-23.oakland.resnet.pitt.edu] has joined #ubuntu
15:11 < uman> default should be very basic trying to be generic, non offensive
15:11 < whiprush> nor me
15:11 < pitti> available is okay, default "no" IMHO
15:11 <@sabdfl> what i'm looking for is a sense of how important the default is in terms of universal acceptance, if alternatives are available
15:11 -!- bdr [~bdr@benroe.plus.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:11 < Keybuk> [Wiki] Is the existence of the artwork a problem even if it is not the default?
15:11 < Telep> I believe it's most sensible to have a simple, abstract theme by default
15:11 -!- hernan43 [~ray@hotwings.cl.msu.edu] has joined #ubuntu
15:11 < Gallivant> I'd say the default's pretty critical
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15:12 < opi^work> sabdfl: I think default theme should be as plain as could be
15:12 < yfir> I'm fine with the images themselves, but I understand why they would cause some "rumbling" among certain groups or in certain places. Hence, should not be default, but still available.
15:12 < seraph> the default artwork as it stands is a no go
15:12 < whiprush> I think the default is crucial to the initial acceptance of the distribution as  a whole. 
15:12 < mirak_-> ahh, default to me makes no difference, as long as it is easily and redily changeable
15:12 < HelloWorld> opi^work, not plain, but simple
15:12 < daniels> we provide kde and other stuff as well -- hell, you can find fortunes-off if you want.  it's the difference between this potentially, being perceived as poor taste on the behalf of ubuntu, or as someone else.  anecdotally, the barrier to offence for the latter would seem to be far higher; there seems to be a higher degree of conservatism expected from shipping products.
15:12 < HelloWorld> they're different things
15:12 < Gallivant> I think the artwork's okay if it's not the default.
15:12 < seraph> default artwork that was acceptable would be a bonus
15:12 < morgs> If default is conservative (!=plain) : alternatives are acceptable
15:12 < opi^work> HelloWorld: ok, simple's better word
15:12 < JanneM> as seraph mentioned, there are a good deal of people that would not accept the artwork as default. At the same time, many people really do like it. So the question really is how available it should be - on the CD, downloadable package?
15:12 < theantix> I think it's highly important that the default is widely acceptable
15:12 < daniels> i don't think anyone would have a problem with Ubuntu if it was merely *available*.
15:12 < kfischer> I think as default it would be nicer, it gives a happier impression. Which might be especially useful for the novice Linux-User
15:13 < limi|london> how about an option on install? "clean" or "photos"?
15:13 < opi^work> I think you can set something with Ubuntu logo
15:13 < yfir> it's also important that ubuntu's default is distinct
15:13 <@sabdfl> ok, let's ask the question in a different way
15:13 < pitti> Does anybody actually think that having the images available would _not_ be acceptable?
15:13 < opi^work> and let me to download this fine GDM login screen with apt-get install gdm-artwork
15:13 < sect2k> since you can not please all the people (for various reasons), having a simple, "neutral" default is the wy to go.
15:13 < crabbox> unfortunately business world requires mild artwork...
15:13 < thom> limi|london: we're trying to reduce number of questions, so that's a no go :-)
15:13 < JanneM> seraph: from your horizon, is the login screen a problem? I know that would probably be acceptable here, even if the other images aren't
15:13 < cbaoth_> I don't see any problems with the artwork being available, but it's not worksafe as a default... unless the bloke takes a shirt on. :p
15:13 < limi|london> ok ;)
15:13 <@sabdfl> the login screen has no nudity, but it's certainly more aimed at fun than work
15:13 < yfir> i don't buy the "the default art should be as plain as possible" argument
15:13 < hernan43> crabbox: yeah i almost got burned on a reboot
15:13 < seraph> JanneM, its not at all acceptable
15:13 < JanneM> seraph: ok
15:13 < seraph> JanneM, the splash is worse
15:14 < Henrik> A large number of basic users will not know how to change the default, or know that it can be changed, or want to spend the 2 minutes required to find out.
15:14 < seraph> the calendar is obscene here
15:14 < Gallivant> The splash, IMHO, is the worst part
15:14 < uman> I liked it, but I can see people having issues with it
15:14 < seraph> ( not my opinion, just the populace here )
15:14 < dewey> I have no problem with the current login I like it myself.
15:14 < Rocha> Henrik, you're right
15:14 <@sabdfl> if our target audience is "ordinary people", should we still ship a default login screen that is oriented to the corporate, when corporates are likely to set it to suit them anyway?
15:14 < seraph> personally, I am cool. but natives are .... not
15:14 < HelloWorld> i actually like everything all around, but some people might have issues with the "naked people"
15:14 < bdr> non-controtreversial!=plain
15:14 < yfir> why not just change it to a non-default status. then everyone is happy, no?
15:14 < dyn> default artwork will paint the first impression of the distro. it will get published in reviews, articles, etc. it should definetely fit the target user base (fun or work usage scenarios, etc)
15:14 < thom> sabdfl: i think the real issues are that corporates will not set it, but simply not use it
15:14 <@sabdfl> seraph: please don't debate other's views, just state your own
15:14 < pitti> sabdfl: yes, because if they see it the first time, they might be embarassed
15:14 < tseng> a) to me it seems out of place, looks more like an ad in a womens magazine than a linux distro, b) its controversial in non-western areas
15:14 -!- moderator [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:14 < JanneM> well, as seraph points out, "ordinary people" in plenty of places would have problems with that default as well
15:14 < littlepaul> change the "nude" images ;-)
15:14 -!- mode/#ubuntu [+o moderator] by ChanServ
15:14 < thom> (where the latter "it" is the distro)
15:14 < daniels> sabdfl: i personally think we should go for least-possible-offence caused.
15:15 < darkersatanic> I think there is definitely sufficient cause to change the current artwork.
15:15 < yfir> i mean, is anyone aguing that the current image MUST be the default? i don't think so
15:15 < jdub> it's inappropriate for a large audience of 'ordinary people' too, plus it goes against our 'greatest common factor' goal of the desktop.
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15:15 < darkersatanic> I don't know if there would be a problem with shipping the current artwork as an option.
15:15 -!- jcs|wi [~jcs@BEAKER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #ubuntu
15:15 < kfischer> Yes. Definitely. It shows that it might be fun to use Ubuntu...
15:15 -!- arturaz [~genius@81-7-84-36.ip.takas.lt] has left #ubuntu ["Leaving"]
15:15 < crabbox> easiest way is to make universal theme which does not offend anyone and then do other (the nice looking ones) as themes which you can select
15:15 -!- ph__ [~ph@pD9E1080E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:15 < opi^work> sabdfl: I love this GDM screen, and don't find it ofensive, funny this is, after reading all this talks on ML I've stumped on flash-ad on big portal with naked females. Noone complained. Females in bra are even better. 
15:15 < seraph> sabdfl, personally, I dodge my mother just logging in
15:15 < uman> it's fine as an option, but should not be default
15:15 < Gallivant> It may be installed, but our hypothetical corporation is probably going to see selecting it as no different than downloading and selecting it.
15:15 < lucas_> I personally liked the theme used during beta test (the one with the globe), and was very disapointed to see it replaced.
15:15 < seraph> at college, on the laptop, I had to dodge lecturers
15:15 < yfir> i liked it too
15:16 -!- One [wtfomg@dyn357-ele.nbw.tue.nl] has joined #ubuntu
15:16 < dyn> the current artwork goes into dangerous directions. many people would refuse even to have a closer look because of the first impression of the distro suggest that it's not for them
15:16 < One> yayy
15:16 < bdr> i use the globe one still - downloaded it off the wiki
15:16 < yfir> dangerous directions? haha
15:16 < seraph> so it bothered me socially
15:16 < SepheeBear> hand out t-shirts, snap another picture, make that default..... and there STILL will be people who'll want to gripe about it
15:16 < krischan> dyn: to engage the former discussion again: where in the file system would you recommomend to place a already-compiled application, and why?
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15:16 < yfir> it's hardly dangerous. it's tacky  because it looks like a Beneton comercial
15:16 < crabbox> try to use human theme at middle east and you get sacked for good
15:16 < dyn> krischan: i thought we're in an artwork meeting :) i guess we'd rather stick to the topic and get back to that when we end
15:16 < brosen> I showed the art to my mother :-) But I don't think it should be default
15:16 < Gallivant> The problem with citing Benneton is that the wiki explicitely cites that as an inspiration
15:16 < seraph> yfir, its obscene here. I can't use it. I was embarrassed the first time it appeared.
15:17 < yfir> obscene?
15:17 < uman> you could leave is as an optional "theme" but not as default
15:17 < theantix> having the current artwork by default also makes Ubuntu known as "that distro with naked people" for better or for worse
15:17 < JanneM> many people do like it, though - and the calendar is a great idea - so it shouldn't be dumped altogether either
15:17 < jsc> i liked it , but i can see how it would be a problem in some situations... make it an option to install ... but not the default
15:17 < opi^work> Im kinda surprised that people that face adv-p0rnography, TV sex and nudity are ofended by people that are not naked :-)
15:17 < lhb> my wife thinks its awesome
15:17 -!- TheMuso [~luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:17 < seraph> opi^work, here non of that is legal :)
15:17 < seraph> none
15:17 <@sabdfl> opi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself
15:17 < opi^work> sabdfl: ok
15:17 < Rocha> How can anyone think of nudity when using ubuntu??!!?!?
15:17 < dyn> keeping the current artwork will pretty soon tag ubuntu as the 'gay distro' indeed. we've already discussed this briefly this morning, many ppl i know reacted like that
15:18 < opi^work> sabdfl: maybe a switch while installation would be helful?
15:18 < Rocha> dyn, are you crazy?
15:18 < pitti> Personally I find the images distracting, and I would be embarassed to have them in the Uni or in a company
15:18 < cbaoth_> First impressions matter I'm afriad.
15:18 < dyn> indeed
15:18 < seraph> sabdfl, I'd say that the artwork was highly professional, but needs to be toned down a lot
15:18 < opi^work> sabdfl: ,,what evn. are you targetting?'' corporate/home
15:18 < seraph> pitti, same sentiments
15:18 -!- jcs|wi [~jcs@BEAKER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has quit [Client Quit]
15:18 < seraph> a corporate theme is confidence inspiring to home users
15:18 < Telep> It's not only non-western areas where it's controversial - my girlfriend said straight away that the splash and wallpaper were clearly more erotic than anything else.
15:18 <@sabdfl> we are not pushing for the corporate market at this stage, it's a nice-to-have
15:19 < yfir> so if issue is: should these images be default - does anyone insist that they are the default? i mean, just make them available but not default and everyone seems to be happy
15:19 < dyn> so it's a clean home/fun distro in its current market positioning?
15:19 < pitti> My gf was not happy with them either
15:19 < JanneM> and don't lose the calendar idea
15:19 < flubie> in eastern culture, it is not acceptable, not to mention if you use it in universities or schools
15:19 < maswan> sabdfl: the student-taking-laptop-to-school market though?
15:19 < opi^work> pitti: OTOH, mine was :-)
15:19 -!- TheMuso_ is now known as TheMuso
15:19 < lucas_> I don't have a gf, but changing the theme might help =)
15:19 < littlepaul> what about some Zulu warriors? http://www.africamasterweb.com/AfricaMbebe/ZuluWarriorsSit.jpg ;-)
15:19 < mirak_-> my gf thinks its fine......doens t se a problem, nor a reason to debate
15:19 < crabbox> calender is good thing
15:19 < sect2k> it's quite simple, if even one potential user is offended by this artwork, it should be a no go
15:19 < dyn> drop it then
15:20 -!- kfischer_ [~kfischer@p54872A34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:20 < maswan> sect2k: I disagree
15:20 < lkx> no drop, but optional ...
15:20 < pitti> Displaying humans and animals of any kind is simply not acceptable in Islamic religion
15:20 < opi^work> sect2k: no way
15:20 < mirak_-> sect2k, we would then be left with shell only
15:20 < kfischer_> How about a simple question during install with a thumbnail showing what is going to be installed and the option to replace it by something different?
15:20 -!- Keyb [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:20 < yfir> you'll never please everyone. eventually, someone is going to be offended and you'll have to draw the line
15:20 < opi^work> sect2k: If I dislike Gnome, should Ubuntu drop it?
15:20 < Telep> and that was my first impression too - a naked lad touching two naked girls certainly didn't scream out "people caring for each other in a totally non-sexual fashion" :D
15:20 < whiprush> if the target is the home user you shouldn't write off a business segment either.
15:20 -!- BenNovack [Gallivant@dhcp-ltc-6-23.oakland.resnet.pitt.edu] has joined #ubuntu
15:20 < limi|london> bash is pretty offensive in itself ;)
15:20 -!- neuro[ingress] [~neuro@217.30.126.93] has joined #ubuntu
15:20 < JanneM> sect2k: I doubt you could find even one solid color that doesn't have a negative connotation somewhere
15:20 < jimi> microsoft is targetting not corporate, and spending M$ about such topic, they never put people images on themes (not to copy them, but to notice)
15:20 < jdub> corporate market may only be "nice to have" at the moment, but there's a lot of active interest, and it would be unwise to endanger the opportunity
15:20 < pitti> kfischer_: I like the thumbnail idea, especially in our text-based installer :-)
15:20 -!- neuro|laptop [~neuro@217.30.126.93] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
15:20 -!- neuro[ingress] is now known as neuro|laptop
15:20 < Rocha> What I think is, I there is someone against the "people" gdm image, you should take it out.
15:20 -!- Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
15:20 < whiprush> jdub: exactly what I wanted to say
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15:21 < BenNovack> There's a difference between "Not actively gunning for corporations" and "actively pissing them off"
15:21 < cbaoth_> ++
15:21 < Rocha> Everyone should agree, there should be no discussion at all!
15:21 -!- The_Bell [~enzo@80-28-169-181.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:21 < Telep> exactly
15:21 -!- z4k4ri4 [~zakaria@ip106-182.cbn.net.id] has joined #ubuntu
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15:21 < The_Bell> hello
15:21 < chris_> No one ever complained about the old theme.  This new one is obviously causing problems.  I don't see why there even needs to be a meeting about it... :)
15:21 < kfischer_> pitti, but that is your problem, not mine :)
15:21 < Rocha> If a significant ammount of people doesn't like, remove it.
15:21 < maswan> Rocha: there would be someone against that particular shade of gray for a single-colour slab gdm screen
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15:22 < JanneM> to put it this way then: do people see a problem with having the theme available on disk but not the default?
15:22 < opi^work> but leave it, so I could install it
15:22 < pitti> argh, netsplit
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15:22 < opi^work> some split
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15:22 < opi^work> :)
15:22 < yfir> janne: me personally, available but not default
15:22 < opi^work> back on topic
15:22 < dyn> i dont think it'd mean a problem
15:22 < limi|london> netsplit!
15:22 < brosen> Janne - that's fine
15:22 < cbaoth_> No.
15:22 < crabbox> leave it on the disk but not as default
15:22 < sect2k> bare in mind that what offends people and what people dislike is not one and the same
15:22 < mirak_-> jannem, I don't see why that would be a problem
15:22 < theantix> sabdfl: if you set a precent now with the artwork, in the future corporations and conservative orgs might be unwilling to commit even if the defaults change
15:22 < Rocha> maswan, it should be a reasonable ammount of people.
15:22 < Telep> having it on the website would be enough imho
15:22 < SepheeBear> the more it pisses people off the more i like it
15:22 < BenNovack> JanneM: Seems fine to me.
15:22 < jimi> +1 yfir, in the theme manager
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15:22 < maswan> yeah, available but not default would be a good solution
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15:22 < krischan> dyn: Artwork meeting? Sorry, that passed me by!
15:22 -!- uman [~uman@220-245-55-54-qld.tpgi.com.au] has joined #ubuntu
15:22 < Rocha> This kind of discussion won't help.
15:22 < sect2k> the fact that i dislike brown color, does not mean i am offended by it
15:22 -!- ubuntugeek [~ubuntugee@24.247.184.104.gha.mi.chartermi.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
15:22 < dyn> krischan: see topic :)
15:22 < krischan> sabdfl: I think opi^work does speak for him-/herself.
15:23 < seb128_> I agree with available but not the default
15:23 < Rocha> I like the image a lot, if it's causing complaints, remove it.
15:23 < lucas_> http://blop.info/screenshot.jpg <= screenshot of the GDM theme that was used during beta test - the one I preferred.
15:23 < daniels> (the last anyone on this side of the split saw was 07:17 <@sabdfl> opi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself)
15:23 < thaytan> any LVM smarts aboot?
15:23 < polok> g'night everyone
15:23 < maswan> you'd still get in trouble in some ME conutries, but, well, not much you can do about that really..
15:23 -!- jcs|wi [~jcs@BEAKER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #ubuntu
15:23 <@sabdfl> do we have everyone back from the split?
15:23 < flubie> default, no. alternative, ok.
15:23 < darkersatanic> I think available but not default is a good option.
15:23 < mirak_-> wow
15:23 < dyn> i like the image too (love it actually), it's something new, something else, but still, it'd make too many people turn away from the distro
15:23 -!- polok [~polok@1Cust55.tnt2.wollongong.au.da.uu.net] has quit ["sleep"]
15:23 < Telep> quite so
15:23 -!- hypn0 [~chatzilla@host81-7-53-199.surfport24.v21.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
15:24 < yfir> my view as well: imagery is fine, but not as default. 
15:24 < Henrik> I also agree with 'available but not the default'
15:24 < uman> it just depends on how global you want to make it, if it has to be "all the planet" you'll have to do it very neutral
15:24 <@sabdfl> lets skip to the next section of the wiki page
15:24 < seraph> I disagree
15:24 < The_Bell> I agree with dyn
15:24 <@sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork
15:24 < BenNovack> I think "available but not default" is the consensus
15:24 < opi^work> 'available but not the default' for me, too
15:24 < seraph> it should not be associated with ubuntu
15:24 < uman> if you want to have some artistic freedom in it, you'll have to leave some folks out
15:24 <@sabdfl> can we have any default images that depict people at all?
15:24 < JanneM> and keep the calendar? :)
15:24 < sect2k> i also agree it's fine as a choice but not as default
15:24 < drod> i like the images as well, personally, but I definitely recognize how much the artwork will limit Ubuntu's reach. Include it, but don't make it the default, that's all we're asking.....
15:24 < The_Bell> lucas_ I get a 404 error
15:24 < seraph> 'unavailable'
15:24 < darkersatanic> Given seraph's comments, though, I'm not sure about the legality of even shipping it at all to (e.g) strongly Islamic countries.
15:24 < Rocha> 'available but not the default' for me, too
15:24 -!- Jon_of_the_Wired [~jonathan@HSE-Montreal-ppp135749.qc.sympatico.ca] has joined #ubuntu
15:24 < jdub> default with people: i lean towards no
15:24 -!- rjek [~rjek@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:24 < seraph> darkersatanic, what is the label going to be"
15:24 -!- brosen [~brosen@c-784971d5.171-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Klienten avslutas"]
15:25 < daniels> sabdfl: the entire split is back, yes
15:25 <@sabdfl> for this part of the session, please don't think of "people" as they are represented in the current artwork
15:25 < seraph> "Soft porn Ubuntu Artwork" ?
15:25 < uman> available but not default
15:25 < whiprush> I don't think images of people fit well at all with a default theme, regardless of how they're dressed or whatever, it's just tacky.
15:25 < rjek> Afternoon.
15:25 < lucas_> old default theme : http://blop.info/screenshot.png (.png, not .jpg)
15:25 < JanneM> darkersatanic: but as seraph points out - animals (including cartoon penguins, I would assume) are a no-no
15:25 < jimi> my view is the same : avaiable in gnome theme manager but no people in default 
15:25 < Rocha> Can we make a vote? With just "yes/no" answers ?
15:25 < theantix> sabdfl: I would be okay with the current gdm image by default if they were all clothed
15:25 < pitti> sabdfl: not in Islamic religion
15:25 < BenNovack> I'm personally tempted to say that depicting people is fine - we can cover for ME countries by simply not making them a default
15:25 -!- jg__ [~jg@192.208.47.194] has joined #ubuntu
15:25 < jg__> daniels: ping
15:25 <@sabdfl> Rocha: no
15:25 < daniels> sabdfl: i don't think we can go with people for defaults -- witness the controversy about what they'd have to be wearing, whether depiction of certain genders/ethnicities/builds/whatever is okay, et al
15:25 < opi^work> sabdfl: I think we could, just give'em Tshirts, so people would not get ,,p0rn'' idea
15:25 < seraph> JanneM, people would be alright, but to be safe ...
15:25 < seraph> remember, in some countries a bourka is considered decent
15:25 < pitti> Personally I would prefer abstract artwork, regardless of the clothing of people
15:26 < seb128_> me too
15:26 < z4k4ri4> me too
15:26 < yfir> seraph, there is no way you are going to please everyone in that sense
15:26 < darkersatanic> JanneM: There are plenty of non-animal things one could use in artwork.
15:26 < seraph> I suggest going with conservative dress
15:26 < yfir> not even worth trying
15:26 < seraph> yfir, then get conservative dressing on the people
15:26 < opi^work> but this photo makes nice comp. to Ubuntu logo
15:26 -!- amin2 [~amin@222.124.41.25] has joined #ubuntu
15:26 < Ng> it would seem a good idea to have humans in ubuntu :)
15:26 < uman> I'd prefer to keep it human, make it optional though
15:26 -!- jamesh [~james@203-59-213-254.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit ["Client exiting"]
15:26 < maswan> seraph: there is no global consensus on conservative dress
15:26 < crabbox> if we dump the people pictures from default installation then gdm artwork should be something else too
15:26 < rjek> Surely you can't have a universally inoffensive default?
15:26 -!- retuow [~we@082-146-101-077.stat.adsl.xs4all.be] has left #ubuntu ["Leaving"]
15:26 < JanneM> darkersatanic: my point is, I doubt we even have an icon theme available that doesn depict animals, for instance
15:26 < seraph> I *really* liked the professionalness of the artwork though
15:26 < seraph> that has to be commended
15:26 -!- perdix [~perdix@134.102.101.166] has joined #ubuntu
15:26 < SepheeBear> methinks this is *ONLY* an issue because Ubuntu's the best distro out there
15:26 < dyn> nod
15:26 < z4k4ri4> But your conservative dressing might different with other culture conservative dressing
15:26 < darkersatanic> JanneM: Ah, I see your point. :)
15:26 < lucas_> what about a picture with people dressed in a more traditionnal way ? The current picture means : let's unite people from all over the world, but dress them as Westerners.
15:26 < rjek> Personally, I find the brown colour scheme offensive. :)
15:26 < yfir> yes, photograpy was excellent
15:26 < Keybuk> how does "conservative dress" play with (e.g.) the Muslim market, for whom conversative dress for a woman is entirely covered? *shrug*
15:26 < flubie> how conservative is conservative enough?
15:27 < The_Bell> It'll always be a problem if people appears in the artwork
15:27 < regex_racoon> rjek: What about volvoman's ubuntu logos
15:27 < sect2k> rjek: why not?
15:27 -!- ogra_ [~ogra@s217-115-139-139.colo.hosteurope.de] has joined #ubuntu
15:27 < uman> it was well done indeed, great artwork, just not appropriate as deault
15:27 < JanneM> silhouettes?
15:27 < Keybuk> regex_racoon: URL?
15:27 < Henrik> With more clothes and a wider distribution of age and good-lookingness, it should be ok to have some humans as default, but perhaps not everywhere and perhaps not such large and bright images
15:27 < rjek> regex_racoon: I've only just joined.
15:27 < kfischer_> The problem with abstract themes is that thea are - wonder - abstract. It clearly states that the computer is a piece of mysterious technology and therefore it cnnot be fun using it. Which is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go...
15:27 < seraph> uman, agreed
15:27 < maswan> seraph: I mean, the current gdm splash is ok as conservative enough clothing around here. Apparently it is not in parts of the world.
15:27 < z4k4ri4> it is safer to use some abstract or symbolic picture
15:27  * Jon_of_the_Wired turned the theme off just because he thinks it's really stupid to have to look at pictures of people he doesn't know.
15:27 < seraph> maswan, slightly more clothing would be best
15:27 < BenNovack> The reason I'm not forwarding the abstract argument is that (If I read things right) the developers want to keep things *human*. Says so in the wiki. But again, just don't make it the default!
15:27 < seraph> maswan, less skin, perhaps tshirts or something
15:27 < maswan> But I would like to see humans.
15:27 -!- retuow [~we@082-146-101-077.stat.adsl.xs4all.be] has joined #ubuntu
15:27 < dyn> if we could have a t-shirt on the guy at least, it'd be fine ;)
15:28 < maswan> seraph: might be fine in your specific location.
15:28 < rjek> I think less people would be offended if the models were attractive. :)
15:28 < regex_racoon> rjek: http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
15:28 < pitti> Human is not necessarily "depict real people"
15:28 < uman> I feel very happy looking at nice people looking up at me, but I don't want to force my pervese nature onto others
15:28 < Telep> Offensive or not, having pictures of people is imho too distracting, and carries potentially too many unintentional messages to use them as default artwork
15:28 < maswan> seraph: thing is, it differs.
15:28 < regex_racoon> rjek: I guess it's volvoguy
15:28 < Telep> especially _photographs_ are problematic imho
15:28 < seraph> maswan, agreed. but to make it available is an option with ore clothes
15:28 < whiprush> next question please. ;) we could be stuck here all day.
15:28 < yfir> should we move on perhaps? we are repeating ourselves on this issue now
15:28 < BenNovack> I'm very much of the opinion that we just make the default abstract, and then don't worry about whta's *available*.
15:28 < nosilver4u> i'm in the US, and normally those images are nothing to blink at, but I work at a Bible College, and I installed unbuntu the day the artwork is changed
15:28 -!- Fwiffo [~user@jep.dhcp.kampsax.dtu.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
15:28 < pitti> Telep: +1
15:28 < JanneM> Telep: I think that the sticking point
15:28 < SepheeBear> people dig the whole "humanity" thing just as long as no real humans are involved
15:28 < rjek> regex_racoon: Some of them are better - if a little overly plain.
15:28 < Telep> I'm of the opinion that images of holding hands and the sort would convey the idea of Ubuntu much better than full images of people, which leave too much room for misinterpretation, esp. if they're half naked.
15:28 < nosilver4u> i almost crapped my pants, cause my boss was sitting 5 feet away
15:28 < bdr> i agree - faces/bodies on a computer are distracting generally
15:28 < maswan> seraph: the _current_ one should be availbable for those that want them
15:29 < nosilver4u> fortunately, he's understanding, and just laughed at my frustration
15:29 < regex_racoon> rjek: But universally unoffensive?
15:29 < kfischer_> But what about the novice user? Will he or she ever learn (and how so?) that there are far more attractive, joyful themes out there thhan just some abstract colrs/shapes?
15:29 < JanneM> how about cartoon? silhouettes of people? animals?
15:29 < opi^work> nosilver4u: my boss, otoh, said the artwork is fine :>
15:29 < jimi> to keep the "human" thing, people can be drwn
15:29 < jimi> drawn
15:29 < Keybuk> kfischer_: I think so, even the most novice user tends to find how to change that
15:29 < jimi> not pictured
15:29 < ogra_> opi^work: mine too :)
15:30 < uman> I find this whole debate ridiculous, but I respect the opinions of others, so keep it simple and non offending
15:30 < nosilver4u> opiwork: did you just ignore the part about me working at a Bible School
15:30 < yfir> i don't know, hentai is pretty offensive in some quarters too :)
15:30 < opi^work> JanneM: I bet some pople would say some animals are a ,,no-go'' to
15:30 < crabbox> drawing actually sounds good
15:30 < seraph> maswan, the gdm bg is ok to ship imo, but the splash and calendars are a definite no no
15:30 < rjek> regex_racoon: I'm not sure it's possible to be universally inoffensive.  Certainly it's possible to try and get close.  Some cultures have strong issues with certain colours, for example.
15:30 < jimi> heh yfir =)
15:30 < mirak_-> most windows/ex-windows users like shiny things, so im sure that one of the first things they go to do is make their desktop look pretty
15:30 < cbaoth_> The splash screen is kind of hard to change.
15:30 < nosilver4u> working at a Bible School=naked people on your desktop is bad
15:30 < regex_racoon> rjek: Good call
15:30 < bdr> they could just add gtweakui or some similar tool to the computer desktop preferences menu to make it more obvious there are alternatives
15:30 < BenNovack> I work tech support at my university, and I can guarantee you that your average user will stop at nothing to put their prom pic/dog/kids on the desktop
15:30 -!- retuow [~we@082-146-101-077.stat.adsl.xs4all.be] has left #ubuntu ["Leaving"]
15:30 <@sabdfl> jimi: i think even drawn representations of the human form are problematic in some cultures
15:30 < sect2k> rjek: name a few?
15:30 < Rocha> mirak_-, that's a critical thing. Make the desktop look pretty.
15:31 < rjek> regex_racoon: Best bet is to go with something that's extremely tricky to avoid in real life, like blue or green. :)
15:31 < opi^work> nosilver4u: god made you naked, so? ;) (sorry, this is not a topic here, but I couldn't resist)
15:31 < Rocha> Almost everyone I know uses windows because it's pretty.
15:31 < BenNovack> This is starting to get tangential, but what about adding a "How to get things done" popup at first login a la most of the major distributions?
15:31 < uman> I must say that this "wallpaper" has been one of the most original ones I've seen for a long time
15:31 < bdr> Windows? Pretty?
15:31 < uman> it's sad that it offends so many
15:31 < opi^work> oxymoron
15:31 < nosilver4u> opiwork: i'm not biting
15:31 < BenNovack> Rocha: I find that really amusing because prettiness is one of the reasons I'm such a linux fan!
15:31 < jimi> sabdfl, yes, i personnaly think default shoud contain no people =) 
15:31 < opi^work> nosilver4u: ok :)
15:31 < shady> what lines do I need to comment on XF86 (for nvidia)
15:31 < yfir> next question already...
15:32 < BenNovack> If I can ask, since I missed the start, who here is canonical?
15:32 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl, It's better to use the old one
15:32 <@sabdfl> i'd like to try to distinguish between "sensible default" and "acceptable to everybody"
15:32 < daniels> sabdfl: (yeah, Islam prevents depiction of Allah's creatures, for two primary reasons, but yeah, they can be offensive in some cultures)
15:32 -!- chrnath [~chrnath@84.100.237.126] has joined #ubuntu
15:32 < JanneM> clothed people in general?
15:32 <@sabdfl> for example
15:32 -!- [Clint] is now known as Clint
15:32 < lucas_> z4k4ri4: can you define "the old one" ?
15:32 < empop> I very much like the direction of the images.  I think that even if they are removed as default, the monthly calendar should continue in that direction
15:32 < JanneM> sabdfl: "acceptable to eveybody" == "turned off monitor"
15:32 < synd|work> Not true
15:32 < z4k4ri4> lucas_: the one with just the logo
15:32 < opi^work> you can't stasify everyone
15:32 <@sabdfl> if the login screen is not good in a corporate setting, and totally offensive in strict muslim countries
15:32 < pitti> empop: it will anyway
15:32 < uman> sensible = no nudity (sigh) generic symbols, stupid everyone the same
15:32 < amin2> help. I lost my gnome panel. I did "sudo aptitue install ~tubuntu desktop". I works but I don't like it, cuz I lost my customize setting
15:32 <@sabdfl> then i'm curious if we could even put it on the cd
15:32 < whiprush> sensible default should be sensibly boring
15:33 <@sabdfl> or in the archive
15:33 < BenNovack> You can't satisfy everyone, but you can at least refrain from *insulting* everyone
15:33 < BenNovack> Agree with whiprush
15:33 <@sabdfl> so let's postulate that the default images were all non-human
15:33 < opi^work> ok
15:33 < rjek> I installed Ubuntu on a linux newbie friend's machine last night.  He did mention that some people might take offense about the lack of representation of people other than men, women, white and black.  (Lack of asians, for example.)  
15:33 < Telep> sabdfl: putting it on the website somewhere would probably be the safest bet, imho
15:33 < JanneM> I think the main sticking point realy was that it would be default, ie. that people wouldn't have a concious choice to use the images
15:33 < crabbox> sabdfl: I agree on that
15:33 < BenNovack> JanneM: Agreed.
15:33 <@sabdfl> and let me ask people to give their view on whether images with the human form could even be on the cd, or if that would risk censorship in mulsim (or other) countries
15:33 < opi^work> sabdfl: yet, human artwork should stay in Ubuntu
15:33 < Kamion> I feel that if people have to actively go and turn an image on, then the onus shifts to them to ensure that it's not offensive to those around them. In the case of the default, the onus is on us.
15:34 -!- u_d [~u_d@41.a.002.ham.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Read error: 232 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:34 < maswan> Telep: somewhere on the website = in the archive
15:34 < jdub> sabdfl: i'm a little concerned about the calendar images being installed by default. they're a cool feature for people to find out about and play with, but installed (even if not on) by default is a bit hairy in some environments. all the kids will switch to the nudie photos, etc... ;)
15:34 < JanneM> I don't see a problem with including it on the CD
15:34 < yfir> sabdfl: i think trying to keep absolutely anything potentially offensive to anyone from the archive is a fruitless battle. just worry about sensible, non-offensive defaults
15:34 < seb128_> I don't get the problem with having it in the archive, people will only have them on screen if they decide to select them ...
15:34 < limi|london> you could also change the approach a bit, and have images (like the calendar idea) from different parts of the world - African savannah, Brazilian rainforest, Norwegian fjords, Icelandic glaciers etc - be the "world distro" more than the "people distro" - that would be less confrontational and still have the global aspect of Ubuntu
15:34 <@sabdfl> Kamion: will the censors in saudi arabia agree with you?
15:34 < Telep> maswan: ok
15:34 < uman> I guess you stick on some toilet type human figures
15:34 < Kamion> sabdfl: no idea :-)
15:34 < Keybuk> sabdfl: I actually asked my next-door neighbours about that ... they didn't think they'd have a problem with things just being installed, as long as they weren't forced to look at them
15:34 < theantix> sabdfl: I don't think the images are so offensive that they can't be included, just not by default -- if someone actively turn them on it is up to them to make sure they arne't offending anyone
15:34 < daniels> sabdfl: i think having them is fine, just as it's fine for us to also ship fortunes-off
15:34 < maswan> jdub: or for that matter for travelling into some ME conutries, you don't want to have that on your laptop in case you are caught in custums.
15:34 < dyn> hah, one again. my noob friend just isntalled ubuntu for the first time 10 minutes ago. i asked them about the login screen's first impression and the answer was "a bit gay"
15:34 < jimi> are penguins offensive in some part of the world?
15:34 -!- seb128_ is now known as seb128
15:34 < dyn> so that's a definite problem
15:34 -!- Clint is now known as [Clint]
15:35 < yfir> gay is a problem?
15:35 < daniels> sabdfl: if people need to actively make a choice to see it, then they won't take offence
15:35 < drod> to me, this seems to be a rehash of everything said in the mailing list over the last several days....with the drawback of not being able to participate much since I'm at work right now.
15:35 <@sabdfl> jimi: you should smell penguin poop
15:35 -!- chadkiser [chadkiser@dpc6682202126.direcpc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:35 < dyn> yfir: in the 'homosexual' meaning of gay
15:35 < jimi> :s
15:35 < crabbox> jimi: yes, here in Filand ;-)
15:35 < uman> I think you could boil it down to this : What would you be comfortable with YOUR children looking at
15:35 < sect2k> daniels: agreed
15:35 < yfir> yeah, i know. what's the problem though?
15:35 < opi^work> dyn: what's gay in famales in male? :O
15:35 -!- shady [~shady@adsl219128.brk.biu.ac.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:35 < opi^work> s/in/and
15:35 < yfir> let's not get offensive (hahaha)
15:35 -!- Napo [~napolita@213-92-104-246.f5.ngi.it] has joined #ubuntu
15:35 -!- Deft [~psh103@witch.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has left #ubuntu ["Leaving"]
15:35 < Napo> Hi all
15:35 < JanneM> uman: not a good test as the answer will change by culture and by individual
15:35 < kfischer_> uman, I found nothing offensive in ubuntu so far..
15:36 < amin2> help..
15:36 < dyn> opi^work: i _cannot_ explain, but i got the same feeling, and he's the 4th ppl saying that from my friendship (all straight with gf :-)
15:36 < Napo> Where i can find a repository for Mplayer and j2sdk for ubuntu?
15:36 -!- mxpxpod [~forbesbd@eth13.com-link.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:36 -!- chrnath [~chrnath@84.100.237.126] has quit [Client Quit]
15:36 < uman> neither do I, but normally we applu stricter standards to what children can "handle"
15:36 < dyn> Napo: website, docs, universal repository
15:36 < dyn> Napo: but we're in a meeting here right now
15:36 < ogra_> Napo: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/RestrictedFormats
15:36 < yfir> napo, search wiki for 'restricted formats'
15:36 <@sabdfl> so is there anyone here who feels strongly that the RC images should not be on the CD at all?
15:36 < uman> and that might just coincide with a more generic/general acceptance
15:37 <@sabdfl> what about for schools, universities?
15:37 < uman> they should be one the CDs
15:37 < JanneM> don't see a problem
15:37 < BenNovack> Schools and universities will disable wallpaper switching anyway
15:37 < empop> I feel strongly they sould remain ON the cd
15:37 < Henrik> Just had a look at the Arabic news service Al-Jazeera out of curiocity, and it's filled with images of people (clothed obviously). If they are not worried about that, then I think we are going too far by worrying about images of people in general. I think those rules are only enforced by the most extreme regimes like the Taliban.
15:37 < whiprush> I'm a .edu admin, I'd strip out the images anyway.
15:37 < crabbox> keep those on the cd
15:37 < kfischer_> on the CD, please
15:37 -!- cprov_ [~cprov@200.158.100.251] has joined #ubuntu
15:37 < seb128> no problem to have them on the CD
15:37 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: but they should be properly labeled
15:37 < uman> they're like pieces of art, you wouldn't want to destroy david
15:37 < yfir> i run an academic network. would be fine
15:37 < drod> on th cd
15:37 < jimi> i think the problem is about default install, choice is good
15:37 < bdr> at my uni somebody got in trouble for putting an empty folder called "Porn" on a public machine
15:37 < jdub> sabdfl: they could be in ShipSeed instead of DesktopSeed (so they're not installed on disk unless you actively choose to)
15:37 -!- ogra [~ogra@217.115.139.139] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:38 < ogra_> Henrik: is here any muslim ? why don't we hear it from them ?
15:38 < kfischer_> z4k4ri4, what does "properly labeled" mean?
15:38 < BenNovack> If they're not in DesktopSeed, most users will never see them
15:38 < Kinnison> sabdfl: On the CD, not installed by default, not copied by archive-copier by default, explicitly marked as something like 'ubuntu-artwork-human' sounds like a good plan to me.
15:38 < xortw> idd
15:38 < uman> Kinnison: agree
15:38 <@sabdfl> Kinnison: then why put them on the cd at all?
15:38 < Rocha> I'll ask the opinion of some of my collegues tomorrow and I'll tell you what did they think.
15:38 < amin2> help.. I lost my gnome panel
15:38 < Telep> Kinnison: agree
15:38 < BenNovack> I think as long as it's not the right-after-install-default, it doesn't matter too much.
15:38 < empop> BenNovack: agreed
15:38 -!- Gallivant [Gallivant@dhcp-ltc-6-23.oakland.resnet.pitt.edu] has quit [Connection timed out]
15:38 < z4k4ri4> kfischer_: Give it a name like human photo or something
15:38 < Rocha> amin2, don't talk about that now.
15:38 < Kinnison> sabdfl: Because synaptic can then ask for the CD if the user opts to install it
15:38 < Rocha> amin2, we're in a meeting
15:38 < jimi> sabdfl, why *not* on the CD ? :)
15:38 -!- The_Bell [~enzo@80-28-169-181.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net] has quit ["Me'n vaig"]
15:38 < Telep> or "ubuntu-half-naked-people" ;)
15:39 < JanneM> nah
15:39 < uman> where does human nature go if you can't depict bits of anatomy
15:39 < crabbox> natural people
15:39 < JanneM> ubuntu-theme-human
15:39 < BenNovack> JanneM: What are you 'nah'-ing?
15:39 < SepheeBear> on the CD with install option to include pictures of real people
15:39 -!- micky55 [~felix@c211-30-189-194.rivrw2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #ubuntu
15:39 < uman> you're not going to show people just in veils
15:39 -!- ubuntugeek [~ubuntugee@24.247.184.104.gha.mi.chartermi.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:39 <@sabdfl> i didn't really get a clear view there, except that everyone seems to think they can stay on the cd
15:39 < lkx> hope to see a decision named 'default smart' soon. gbye :)
15:39 < JanneM> BenNovack: "ubuntu-half-naked-people"
15:39 -!- chadkiser [chadkiser@dpc6682202126.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:39 < JanneM> yes
15:39 -!- mlh [~mlh@c211-30-62-11.belrs1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Client Quit]
15:39 -!- christian__ [christian@target.tte.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:39 < uman> if you go to a beach you'll see people wearing less
15:39 < lucas_> then, could you ship the theme used during beta test too (the globe one) ? ;-) 
15:40 < whiprush> Keep them on the CD
15:40 < JanneM> uman: but you choose to go to the beach. 
15:40 < yfir> to some sects of menonite, computers themselves are offensive. give up trying to please all and work on developing a sensible default
15:40 < Kinnison> sabdfl: It seems a pity to force people to download it; but I guess having it in the archive but not on the CD might be safer for getting the CDs imported into strict countries.
15:40 < johnlevin> uman: depends on the beach
15:40 < JanneM> people in business attire good?
15:40 < dyn> sabdfl: we're mostly from europe or the usa i believe. i have zero idea how eg. asian ppl would react on that topic - they should be asked
15:40 < jdub> sabdfl: subtle midpoint that was missed on the wiki: 'on by default' vs. 'installed by default' vs. 'on the cd'
15:40 < lucas_> uman: ever been to the beach near the caspian see, in iran ? :)
15:40 < |trey|> Ugh, more discussion about the graphics?
15:40 <@sabdfl> Kinnison: calendar requires download anyhow for ongoing update each month
15:40 < z4k4ri4> dyn: I'm an indonesian
15:40 < Telep> uman: you'd still be distracted if people were dressed to work in swimsuits and bikinis
15:40 < BenNovack> I know Ubuntu is really big on not having the usual distro-style overload on 'choice' - only gnome, only openoffice, etc - but I dont' think it's a problem to have lots of options for wallpaper after default.
15:40 < uman> I doubt that there is a culture that will not, in any form, show the upper torso of a man
15:41 < bob2_> |trey|: it's a meeting.
15:41 < dyn> z4k4ri4: wow, so make your voice heard!
15:41 < z4k4ri4> I'm trying
15:41 < |trey|> bob2_: ahh... I thought that was #ubuntu-meeting..
15:41 -!- cprov [~cprov@200.158.100.251] has quit [Connection timed out]
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15:41 -!- Fwiffo [~user@jep.dhcp.kampsax.dtu.dk] has joined #ubuntu
15:41 <@sabdfl> can we talk for a bit about derivatives?
15:41 < z4k4ri4> What bother me the most is the gnome splash screen
15:42 < Kinnison> sabdfl: true enough. Okay, I revise my suggestion to: Not on CD; in archive; not depended upon (which could result in strange accidental installation); package name 'ubuntu-artwork-human' and with a description which clearly states that it contains images which some cultures may find distasteful
15:42 < |trey|> IMO, if the graphics offend anyone, they should be re-done or the old defaults should be kept...
15:42 < BenNovack> z4k4ri4: Agreed
15:42 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: what you mean about derivatives?
15:42 < lucas_> uman: there are. in iran you can't walk around half-naked, for example
15:42 <@sabdfl> on the wiki i've describe the issue
15:42 < Kamion> Kinnison: depended-upon would have germinate force it into desktop anyway, so you just mean 'in germinated supported seed'
15:42 < dyn> z4k4ri4: you feel that the most offensive? would you feel offended to make it a choose-able alternative, not the default one? would you prefer abstract graphics as the default?
15:42 <@sabdfl> for warty, this is the only official release
15:42 < uman> lucas_: but how far will you go ?
15:42 < SepheeBear> i think the artwork gives the message to keep an open mind in general
15:42 <@sabdfl> but we expect that hoary will have many derivatives
15:42 -!- The_Bell [~enzo@80-28-169-181.adsl.nuria.telefonica-data.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:42 < xcasex> SepheeBear, agreed
15:42 <@sabdfl> each tailored for a specific industry or country
15:43 < uman> if there is one tribe in africe that doesn't like showing your eye, will you forbid all depiction of eyes ?
15:43 < Telep> sabdfl: I believe all over the world you will find a _significant_ amount of people who will be put off by half-naked people.
15:43 <@sabdfl> they may be coordinated by teams completely independent of what we do
15:43 < dyn> whorey - as we heard today - lol
15:43 -!- glssys_wrk [~xchat@server119.jobstream.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:43 <@sabdfl> but we'll consider them official ubuntu derivatives
15:43 < dyn> refering the artwork
15:43 < dyn> (sorry)
15:43 < uman> there has to be some measure of reason
15:43 < Kamion> I'd expect it to be each derivative's choice ...? we're giving advice already by virtue of producing Ubuntu
15:43 < z4k4ri4> dyn: But currently there is no user friendly way to change it
15:43 < whiprush> derivates I think should depend on the derivative itself. ie. is it just "Joe's Linux, based on Ubuntu" or something else.
15:43 < TheMuso> I believe that to allow for a useful Ubuntu installation for blind/vision impaired people, a separate derivitive is necessary.
15:43 -!- C2H5OH [~etanol@129.Red-80-36-215.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:43 < JanneM> and a measure of reaason is, include it or make available, but make it optional
15:43 < C2H5OH> hello all
15:43 -!- __willow__ [~willow@pool-151-203-147-168.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu
15:43 < uman> I'm fine with optional
15:43 < uman> but it should be on the Cd
15:44 < opi^work> and in archive
15:44 -!- crash_ [~crash@h114n3fls301o1039.telia.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:44 < z4k4ri4> dyn: I prefer abstract picture
15:44 < whiprush> then I think it depends on the usage of Ubuntu and other canonical stuff, similar to what RH does with their derivatives. ie. remove copyrighted artwork, etc. etc.
15:44 < BenNovack> I'd say the splash absolutely has to go
15:44 < yfir> sabdfl: not sure what you are asking us, but the idea of 'derivatives' sounds great
15:44 < kfischer_> I think having different copies for different regions might be the best solution - granted, you always find somebody who is offended. But it's definitely the best choice to offer a tailored version for different region with different snsitivities.
15:44 <@sabdfl> should we require that the ubuntu derivative for the netherlands follow a code acceptable in iran?
15:44 < yfir> no
15:44 < JanneM> no
15:44 < Telep> no
15:44 < kfischer_> no
15:44 < theantix> no
15:44 < whiprush> no
15:44 < perdix> no
15:44 < morgs> no
15:44 < ogra_> no
15:44 < JanneM> and vice versa, of course
15:45 <@sabdfl> wow. consensus
15:45 < crabbox> no
15:45 < kfischer_> Wow...
15:45 < Telep> :D
15:45 < SepheeBear> i just hope this doesnt cause the Ubuntu community to split into two camps "shirts and skins"
15:45 < jdub> sabdfl: i think it would be unfortunate to have derivatives made solely due to inadequacies in ubuntu itself (lame i18n, unfortunate choice of artwork, etc). that just dilutes ubuntu, without having a really good reason for the derivative.
15:45 < whiprush> heh
15:45 < z4k4ri4> no
15:45 < littlepaul> no
15:45 < JanneM> jdub: true
15:45 < z4k4ri4> But make it clear that they could insult people in iran
15:45 < crabbox> simple question and simple answer
15:45 < JanneM> there are some things that are difficult to paper over, though
15:45 < opi^work> but, OTOH, Muslim rules ofending my g 
15:45 < bdr> apt-get install ubuntu-desktop-muslim
15:45 < Napo> dyn, ogra_, yfir: thanks for the help ;)
15:45 <@sabdfl> jdub: greatest common factor inevitably implies a certain amount of lowest common denominator, and derivatives are our way of breaking free of that
15:45 < opi^work> gf
15:45 < whiprush> plus if you restrict what an "official" derivative can do, people will just make it unofficial and drive one
15:46 < kfischer_> someting like that is already done with games, blood and no-blood and such things..
15:46 < JanneM> you include the Taiwanese flag and you are banned from China. You don't include it, and you piss off a lot of Taiwanese
15:46 < uman> greatest common denominator is to respect the values of your fellow man
15:46 -!- mctavish [~david@231.20.233.220.exetel.com.au] has left #ubuntu []
15:46 < jdub> sabdfl: sure, but derivatives should be picking bigger fights.
15:46 < uman> if other people don't want it on the CD, don't out it on there
15:46 < jimi> export nudity_percent="50"
15:46 < C2H5OH> is there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?
15:46 <@sabdfl> a fight is a fight, and this is something we need to figure out
15:46 <@sabdfl> taiwan and china is a good example
15:46 < yfir> it gets difficult too: do you include a "basque" derivative? a "quebecoise" derivative? political decisions
15:47 <@sabdfl> kashmir . india, pakistan is another
15:47 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: You should choose your fight well
15:47 < Jon_of_the_Wired> I think this has gone wildly off-topic
15:47 < Telep> yup
15:47 < uman> it boils down to if you think that your artistic value is more important than other people's cultural values
15:47 < yfir> jon, it hasn't. check the wicki-topic page
15:47 < lucas_> jimi: http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/index.php might interest you =)
15:47 < jdub> sabdfl: for instance, if a derivative (with the same goals as the general ubuntu) is made for a region just because we don't include five well integrated pacakges, that's lame.
15:47 < uman> do you want a "world" distribution or don't you
15:48 < JanneM> jdub: real example?
15:48 <@sabdfl> jdub: even if those packages are only applicable in that country? disagree
15:48 < yfir> why don't you follow the "style guide" of the UN?
15:48 < yfir> hehe
15:48 < jimi> here why other distro dont put people on their themes :s
15:48 < jdub> JanneM: including japanese input support and fonts
15:48 < bdr> you have to decide somewhere. available but not default seems fine for a generally liberal westernish distro. Anything more extreme could be covered by derivatives or alternative CD isos.
15:48 < JanneM> jdub: yep.
15:48 < kfischer_> As an artist myself I can only say: go for the artistic value. But then this is not about art, isn't it?
15:48 <@sabdfl> ok, i got what i was looking for, which was a clear answer that derivatives are a separate kettle of fish
15:48 < jimi> lucas thanks ^_
15:48 -!- Slayer|Asta [Slayer|@ASTA40.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #ubuntu
15:48 < dyn> kfischer_: should be about both
15:48 <@sabdfl> and we can have derivatives that address different cultural norms
15:48 <@sabdfl> let's move on
15:48 < jdub> JanneM: versus a tightly honed, minimal firewall derivative
15:48 < Telep> I think the developers should see that the value of Ubuntu is not in having fancy artwork, but in the fact that it's a simple, easy linux distro.
15:49 < lucas_> sabdfl: what's the point in having "official" derivates ?
15:49 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Can third party make derivatives easily?
15:49 < JanneM> mm
15:49 < uman> it has to be global
15:49 <@sabdfl> lucas_: it's a big world
15:49 <@sabdfl> let's talk about the gnomesplash screen in RC, it's the most controversial
15:49 < uman> each culture still can have their optional items
15:49 < daniels> (two cents: needing derivatives to address cultural sensitivities is probably indicative of a shortcoming in the first place, as jdub alluded to)
15:49 <@sabdfl> because it is the hardest to change
15:49 < dyn> it's the worst of all
15:49 < empop> why?
15:49 < Keybuk> lucas_: a group of people might want to produce a derivative of Ubuntu with KDE instead of GNOME ... if they're willing to follow the Ubuntu code of conduct, etc. there's no reason not to bless them as an official derivative
15:49 < bdr> lucas: couldn't you just scipt the building of different isos? depending on region/morals etc
15:50 < Telep> sabdfl: it should definately be replaced.
15:50 <@sabdfl> i'm convinced from the mailing list and forum discussion that we can't ship it as the default
15:50 < Telep> ok
15:50 < jmchugh> agreed
15:50 < JanneM> mm
15:50 < yfir> agree
15:50 < crabbox> gnome splash is same as other artwork. change the people non defautl and same goes for the gdm
15:50 < bdr> yes
15:50 < ogra_> sad but yes
15:50 < opi^work> sabdfl: maybe Ubuntu/Gnome logo instead?
15:50 < BenNovack> The splash is the worst of them all
15:50 <@sabdfl> crabbox: one at a time please
15:50 < uman> it all boils down to what goals you have, do you want to make a global distribution or not
15:50 < flubie> crabbox: agreed
15:50 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: What do you use instead?
15:50 < xcasex> uman it's not black and white.
15:50 < uman> do you want to split it up into regional a distributions or not
15:50 < nosilver4u> that was quite difficult to change, and most non tech-savvy people would have been stuck with a splash they didn't appreciate
15:50 < Telep> someone suggested a picture of the Earth bathing in sunlight - sounds nice to me :)
15:50 < yfir> two suggestions: 1) make it non-default, 2) develop a gui way to easily change the splash screen
15:50 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: The old one?
15:50 < Jon_of_the_Wired> down that road lies infinite complexity
15:51 < uman> xcasex: to an extent it is
15:51 < nosilver4u> i would be all for an easier way to change the splash
15:51 < jmchugh> yfir: that would be ideal
15:51 < C2H5OH> is there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?
15:51 < nosilver4u> so i'm with yfir
15:51 < opi^work> maybe we should have groups working on something similar to translations teams? ubuntu-pl-artwork.deb, ubuntu-jp-artwork.deb
15:51 <@sabdfl> we will produce a new gnomesplash to be the default
15:51 < jdub> sabdfl: if we switch the splash back to the ubuntu logo, i don't think it's worth bothering shipping alternative splashes, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).
15:51 < uman> I liked the artwork very much, but I'll defent the right of someone from a different cultural background not having it as a default
15:51 -!- amin2 [~amin@222.124.41.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:51 < bdr> yfir:seconded and 2) is very easy
15:51 < whiprush> adding a tool to change the splash isn't a solution, I shouldn't have to change it.
15:51 < pitti> C2H5OH: I doubt that this works
15:51 < lucas_> Keybuk: but it means you will have to do support work for them. Anyway it is OT, so dont reply =)
15:51 < Keybuk> sabdfl: what about /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ubuntu-logo-508x340.png ?
15:52 < xcasex> uman, so if we're going down the cultural sensitivity path, we need to factor in all the other aspects.
15:52 <@sabdfl> Keybuk: perhaps, with tweaks
15:52 < jimi> i would like to see the earth, too =)
15:52 <@sabdfl> i'm not looking for creative suggestions as to what we might ship
15:52 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Can we have a look before you put it in our desktop?
15:52 -!- tof__ [~tof@blueice2n1.uk.ibm.com] has joined #ubuntu
15:52 < kfischer_> Sorry, sabdfl, I think the right step would be to include it in general in the original distribution and create the derivates you mentioned
15:52 < jimi> ok
15:52 < yfir> ship it as non default then. eeryone is happy that way
15:52 < bdr> whiprush: no, but many will want to, whatever the GNOME ideal of non-configurability says
15:52 < tof__> hi all
15:52 < uman> I wished that the naked human form wouldn't offend so many people
15:52 < nosilver4u> whiprush: that's just a suggestion to make it a better distro, the first step was to change the bootsplash
15:52 <@sabdfl> z4k4ri4: we can send a notice of the package updates to the list, but there will not be time to change it again before release
15:52 < uman> it's what we all are
15:52 < xcasex> they arent *that* naked
15:53 < yfir> uman: so do i but it does unfortunately
15:53 < BenNovack> They're very naked
15:53 < Telep> naked enough
15:53 < opi^work> uman: me too, but what we going to do? :)
15:53 < xcasex> and if that amount of nudity offends people
15:53 < crabbox> drawn aboriginal pictures from different countries
15:53 < tof__> anyone know how i can configure xprint to print from firefox ?
15:53 < xcasex> they need to get out more.
15:53 < BenNovack> There are a *lot* of people who are offended by that level of nudity - in the wallpaper, it really looks to a lot of poeple like there's about to be a threesome.
15:53 <@sabdfl> tof__: we're in an artwork discussion, should be done inn about 30 minutes
15:53 < bdr> if someone tried to go to work in an office dressed like that, I doubt they'd have a job very long
15:53 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: I mean it is better to have community to look at it to avoid further controversy
15:53 < uman> you could do them like the lil symobls on the toilets
15:53 -!- calc_ is now known as calc
15:53 < uman> just symbolized humans
15:54 < uman> I'll keep the real ones as wallpaper, though
15:54  * sladen wonders...  is it just me, or is this one issue {getting,going to get} more press for Ubuntu than anything else/
15:54 < xcasex> sladen it is
15:54 < Keybuk> sladen: hasn't got us any yet, has it?
15:54 < pitti> sladen: first impression
15:54 < tof__> sabdfl, ok thx and sorry ;)
15:54 < ogra_> slan: sadly yes
15:54 < uman> all you have to decide is if you want to go for the lowest common denominator, or not
15:54 <@sabdfl> tof__: no worries
15:54 < thisfred> symbolized humans aren't acceptable to some muslims either
15:54 < bdr> as long as they spell ubuntu right
15:54 < C2H5OH> pitti: I was curious about it, I'm gogin to test the liveCD before I install
15:54 < nosilver4u> thisfred: you serious?
15:54 < Telep> uman: whatever you think about how nudity _should_ be treated, you can't just ignore 
15:54 -!- sivang [~sg@80.179.93.130.forward.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu
15:54 < thisfred> yes
15:55 < pitti> C2H5OH: upgrade from woody or reinstall from scratch
15:55 < yfir> sladen: makes sense though - if Ubuntu bills itself as the 'accessible, humanized' linux, then this is a perfectly expected issue to face 
15:55 <@sabdfl> ok, so on the gnomesplash, should we include this image as an option on the cd?
15:55 < JanneM> uman: on this, lowest common denominator is probably reasonable
15:55 < crabbox> yes
15:55 < whiprush> yes
15:55 < JanneM> yes
15:55 < empop> yes
15:55 < opi^work> hope the Planet wouldn't offend anyone, some people thinks that earth is flat
15:55 < kfischer_> no
15:55 < C2H5OH> pitti:  I have sid now, fortunately my /home is in a different partition
15:55 < bdr> "some" muslims? What fraction are we talking about?
15:55 < thisfred> I think the quran forbids it, but there are differneces in interpretation
15:55 < yfir> yes
15:55 < mirak_-> this argument/discussion has gone on for way to long to not just say "we will leave it out, but it is available here"
15:55 < ogra_> sabdfl: yes 
15:55 < BenNovack> yes, but it CANNOT be the default
15:55 < Telep> uman: ... the fact that imagery like that has lot's of sexual meaning even in liberal, western societies
15:55 < bdr> yes
15:55 < theantix> sabdfl: I'm not clear as to how that would work?  as a install option?
15:55 -!- drod [~dave@198.252.200.253] has quit ["Leaving"]
15:55 < nosilver4u> mirak: agreed
15:55 <@sabdfl> kfischer_: why no? you're the only voice against including it as an option
15:55 < jdub> i don't think it's worth bothering shipping secondary splash images, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).
15:55 <@sabdfl> ?
15:55 < uman> option, yes
15:56 < z4k4ri4> thisfred: It is not forbid in quran but in sunnah or the interpretation of sunnah
15:56 < empop> could it be linked to the monthly calendar?
15:56 <@sabdfl> theantix: you would need to install it yourself, using the same process you can currently use to remove it
15:56 < thisfred> ty z4k4ri4
15:56 < thisfred> I'm not an expert
15:56 < theantix> sabdfl: okay, that would be fine
15:56  * z4k4ri4 is a muslim
15:56 < Keybuk> sabdfl: I tend to agree with jdub here ... there's little reason to ship more than one splash screen as they're a bugger to change
15:56 < sect2k> why would the splashscreen/loginscreen issue be any different than wallpaper issuse
15:56 -!- jbroome [~jbroome@dargo.trilug.org] has left #ubuntu []
15:56 <@sabdfl> sect2k: more difficult to change
15:56 < nosilver4u> yeah, unless you do the whole gui splashscreen changer
15:56 < bdr> sorry to repeat myself, but use gteakui and it's much easier
15:57 < nosilver4u> (besides gconf)
15:57 < mirak_-> isnt that already available in gnome?
15:57 < Keybuk> (though, likewise, I guess there's little reason not to ship more than one *shrug*)
15:57 < jdub> there's no cost in having it on disk
15:57 <@sabdfl> Keybuk: it could also be automatically installed when you install the calendar desktop
15:57 -!- robtaylor [~robtaylor@217.204.121.82] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:57 < jdub> but it's not as if it's a feature
15:57 < z4k4ri4> May be complete background theme that change gdm, splash screen and wallpaper
15:57 < yfir> point is, those tools aren't easily findable by a beginning linux user
15:57 < sect2k> sabdfl1: but the resolution should be the same, default no, as choice ok, no?
15:57 < nosilver4u> no, but it's pointless to work on alternatives if few people will use them
15:57 -!- Harakh_ [[YUcmTwSfG@tuxedo.abo.fi] has joined #ubuntu
15:57 -!- Harakh_ is now known as Hagge
15:58 < jdub> sabdfl: that's doable, but additional complexity, and requires the user to reconfigure the splash manually to choose the 'calendar' version
15:58 <@sabdfl> sect2k: possibly, i'm just checking on the issue, people may feel differently about different images
15:58 < uman> in the end, you should be able to chose your own "theme" from some webpage, but the default shoule be as least offencive as possivle
15:58 < uman> possible
15:58 <@sabdfl> jdub: gconftool call on calendar artwork postinst, surely?
15:58 -!- guptan [~Raj@we12894.emirates.net.ae] has joined #ubuntu
15:58 < sect2k> sabdf1: i agree, but in my opinion, wallpaper is less contraversial than login/splash
15:58 < BenNovack> Okay, I'm confident I'll be content with the conclusion, based on what I'm hearing... gotta do some homework.
15:58 < Keybuk> sabdfl: would change it for everyone, not just those that select the calendar theme
15:58 < ogra_> sabdfl: i'm very sad it has to go, but apparantly it has
15:58 < jdub> sabdfl: that means changing the default for all users when installing that package. not good.
15:58 -!- BenNovack [Gallivant@dhcp-ltc-6-23.oakland.resnet.pitt.edu] has quit []
15:59 -!- jpvcx [~jpvcx@j132024.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #ubuntu
15:59 < guptan> Hi Room
15:59 -!- thaytan [~jan@25.30.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit ["See y'all"]
15:59 -!- Nonphasis [~ville@a81-197-192-150.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu
15:59 <@sabdfl> Keybuk: common case is one user per machine
15:59 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: When the meeting will be finish
15:59 < mirak_-> never
15:59 <@sabdfl> z4k4ri4: about another 25 minutes i think
15:59 -!- Slayer|Asta [Slayer|@ASTA40.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has left #ubuntu ["tschüss ihr Pisser!"]
15:59 < littlepaul> ;-(
15:59 < Telep> I doubt the meeting will be ever in Finnish ;)
16:00 <@sabdfl> Telep: unlikely to be as much of a debate, certainly :-)
16:00 < Telep> (aaargh, I'm so funny today)
16:00 < jdub> sabdfl: that may be the common case, but it's very un-golden-rule to change everyone's default when installing a package
16:00 < JanneM> well, some of us could manage :)
16:00 < bdr> sabdfl: Not necessarily. I would imagine many have one main plus several occaisional users (wife/kids/gf)
16:00 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Have you decide yet?
16:00 < Telep> yes, not everyone lives in a basement :)
16:01 <@sabdfl> you mean your wife might like it but gf disapproves?
16:01 < Telep> believe it or not :)
16:01 < JanneM> bdr: but in that case, it is also reasonable for them to do an estimation on whether it sould be acceptabel
16:01 < Telep> sabdfl: :D
16:01 <@sabdfl> z4k4ri4: no, not yet
16:01 < ogra_> sabdfl: lol
16:01 < JanneM> they are not unknown people
16:01 <@sabdfl> ok, let's move on
16:01 <@sabdfl> the calendar desktop wallpapers
16:01 -!- tof__ is now known as discus
16:01 -!- uman [~uman@220-245-55-54-qld.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
16:01 < z4k4ri4> Will you decide when the meeting over? or we should wait more?
16:01 < JanneM> option, but _please_ keep the calendar idea
16:01 < jdub> setting a gconf default on unrelated pacakge install is something we should avoid in general
16:01 < whiprush> agree with JanneM 
16:01 <@sabdfl> first let me apologise for the fact that these suddenly became default for people who had looked at the backgrounds during preview
16:01 -!- liff [liff@puska.yrtti.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:01 < crabbox> keep the calender idea
16:02 < dyn> sabdfl: can the calendar pics somewhere checked online? i haven't seen them (and am currently on gentoo)
16:02 < bdr> I get in trouble for moving icons on my gf's desktop, for god's sake.
16:02 < z4k4ri4> What about not one calendar but multiple calendar
16:02 < JanneM> z4k4ri4: probably a good deal of work
16:02 < opi^work> I don't know what calendar is (running Ubuntu/custom;-) so I remain quiet :)
16:02 < bdr> agreed, it's a nice idea
16:02 < theantix> current situation (installed but not selected by default) is fine with me -- if it is too risque for your org you won't choose it
16:02 -!- sanitari1 is now known as sanitario
16:02 < Telep> I think the calendar idea is cool, but don't undestand why the calendar pics should depict naked people :/
16:02 < JanneM> opi^work: cutomagically changing backgrounds every month
16:02 < ogra_> opi^work: monthly changing background
16:03 < yfir> callendar is great, but again not as default
16:03 < opi^work> It won't work with XFce4, so I can not decite :)
16:03 < sladen> Telep: what would be your opinion on naked animals?
16:03 -!- drobitaille [~daniel@d154-5-117-228.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:03 < Telep> sladen: is that a serious question? :)
16:03 <@sabdfl> ok, we have been working on splitting out the calendar as a separate artwork package
16:03 < yfir> shaved animals are a no no!
16:03 <@sabdfl> if this is removed, then the calendar desktops are not available at all
16:03 < Telep> :D
16:04 < kfischer_> I vote for: include them
16:04 < ogra_> sabdfl: but the possibility stays ?
16:04 <@sabdfl> the calendar will not be the default desktop
16:04 < crabbox> include them
16:04 -!- tester99 [~yz@216.238.205.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:04 < yfir> i vote: include
16:04 <@sabdfl> but should the calendar be installed and available by default?
16:04 < JanneM> include
16:04 < empop> that sounds fine (though i like it better as default)
16:04 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: I agree with that
16:04 < ogra_> inc !
16:04 < jdub> no
16:04 < kfischer_> yes
16:04 < opi^work> yes
16:04 < Telep> sabdfl: include them, but don't install them by default
16:04 < yfir> available yes
16:04 < whiprush> no
16:04 < perdix> no
16:05 < lamont> ship, not installed
16:05 < jsc> yes
16:05 < ari_> Maybe any pictures of humans (or other problematic pictures) should be made available in such way that you can never get them on your screen accidentally (for example when when just browsing around your fresh system, trying to get familiar with it)
16:05 < Nonphasis> ship, not default
16:05 < morgs> ship, not installed
16:05 < yfir> but not "used" as background. (if that's what you mean by installed)
16:05 < theantix> ship, not installed
16:05 -!- tester99 [~yz@216.238.206.128] has joined #ubuntu
16:05 < flubie> include, not default
16:05 < opi^work> why not installed but not used as default?
16:05 < crabbox> yes
16:05 < Telep> no
16:05 <@sabdfl> yfir: it will not show up unless you select it in the list
16:05 < lamont> yfir: on the cd, not on the hard drive  == ship, not installed
16:05 < sect2k> it should be installed and avaliable by default, but not selected as default
16:05 < yfir> yes, agree then. ship, not installed
16:06 < bdr> maybe some start up (first time login) dialog? Which theme, calendar yes/no etc?
16:06 < Nonphasis> cd? forget the cd, ppl discard it anyway
16:06 -!- CraHan [~CraHan@192-103.244.81.adsl.skynet.be] has joined #ubuntu
16:06 < jimi> yeah
16:06 < jdub> bdr: we'd like to avoid that kind of thing (installer, startup thingy) as much as possible
16:06 < bdr> Nonphasis:not if you have dialup
16:06 < jimi> +1 for "first boot wizard"
16:06 < bdr> jdub:ok
16:06 < lamont> Nonphasis: I don't care if the .deb gets copied into /var/cache/apt/archives
16:06 -!- regex_racoon [~back_east@wndsnynas01-pool0-a11.wndsny.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:06 < Telep> I think even having it available in the list of wallpapers will be a problem to some - as sabdfl said.
16:06 <@sabdfl> lamont: i'm not sure that it does
16:07 < yfir> well, good luck with this everyone. got to go.
16:07 -!- yfir [~yfir@dsl-140-179.aei.ca] has left #ubuntu []
16:07 < crabbox> cheers yfir
16:07 < kfischer_> Having it available may cause problems? I seriously doubt that...
16:07 < Nonphasis> hard drive space is cheap, so of course it should be available
16:07 -!- hubs [~hubs@N687P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Verlassend"]
16:07 < z4k4ri4> It should be available but not installed as default
16:07 < opi^work> Ok, im happy with conslusions
16:08 < opi^work> time to leave office
16:08 -!- morgs [~morganc@wblv-234-32.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:08 < bdr> it's like 20 pixels across in the background list - surely not a problem?
16:08 < opi^work> thanks for Ubuntu :)
16:08 < maswan> lamont: the issue is that getting caught in customs with pics of people without "sufficient" cloathing can be a real issue for some countries. for local values for "sufficient". :/
16:08 < Telep> kfischer_: well if someone objects to that kind of images, they won't like it if they accidentally click on the image in the list - and that's not esp. difficult to do.
16:08 <@sabdfl> opi^work: no conclusions yet
16:08 < Kamion> lamont: we're not doing that with Ship for warty, will do for hoary
16:08 < opi^work> sabdfl: but I see where it's heading
16:08 < flubie> opi^work: what conclusions?
16:08 < Kamion> lamont: (because we needed to create an apt archive for Ship, and that was delicate ...)
16:08 < opi^work> sabdfl: will there be any summary posted to ML?
16:09 <@sabdfl> opi^work: yes, i'll follow up to previous mail
16:09 < opi^work> flubie: I think most of us agree that controversial stuff should be keeped, yet, not installed as default :)
16:09 < opi^work> sabdfl: thank you
16:09 -!- Chriffer [~nargojojo@pcp01379838pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:09 < z4k4ri4> For once I agree with opi^work
16:09 < sparkes> opi^work, that's good should please more than it upsets
16:09 < opi^work> ;->
16:09 <@sabdfl> opi^work: sure
16:10 -!- opi^work [~emil@ar2.tpnets.com] has quit ["XChat's gone. http://opi.pegasos.pl"]
16:10 <@sabdfl> last, let's look at the login screen
16:10 -!- jacob [~jacob@h146n1fls23o1061.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu
16:10 <@sabdfl> same questions
16:10 -!- thully [~thully@pm481-20.dialip.mich.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:10 < ogra_> keep it keep it keep it
16:10 < kfischer_> I second that
16:10 < whiprush> ship, not as default.
16:10 < SepheeBear> login screeen is awesome
16:10 < empop> again, i like the concept
16:10 < z4k4ri4> ship not installed
16:10 < ogra_> keep it as defaul t
16:10 < crabbox> ship, no default
16:10 < empop> keep
16:10 < theantix> ship, not as default
16:11 < TheMuso> Ship, no default.
16:11 -!- Keyb [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu
16:11 < perdix> ship, don't make it default
16:11 < Nonphasis> install, not default
16:11 < sect2k> have it as an option, but not as default
16:11 -!- Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:11 < bdr> I wouldn't use it, was the first thing I changed. a bit goofy looking
16:11 < chadkiser> not as default but shipped
16:11 < JanneM> people have less problems with it, but still enough do that it may not be acceptable as default
16:11 < faaip> install, not default
16:11 < lkx> ship, not default
16:11 < vrln> the old non-photograph login screen was perfect
16:11 < sanitario> ship, not default
16:11 < jdub> installed, not default
16:11 -!- ando [~ando@213-202-128-8.bas502.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:11 < flubie> ship, not default
16:11 < johnlevin> not default
16:11 < vrln> ship, not default
16:11 < SepheeBear> default
16:11  * z4k4ri4 has problem with gdm login
16:11 < seb128> not the default
16:11 < JanneM> installed
16:11 < bdr> agreed, ship not default is fine
16:11 < sanitario> installed, not default
16:11 -!- Keyb is now known as Keybuk
16:11 -!- amin2 [~amin@222.124.41.25] has joined #ubuntu
16:11 <@sabdfl> ok, so broad consensus against it as the default, but no on installation
16:11 < Jon_of_the_Wired> and please give us the old one back.  Happy Gnome is much to blue for ubuntu.
16:12 -!- lupus [~lupus@kn-ivl-2.kuleuven.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:12 < z4k4ri4> yes
16:12 < whiprush> yes
16:12 < jsc> yes
16:12 < lkx> yes :)
16:12 < TheMuso> yes
16:12 < crabbox> yes
16:12 < thully> I liked the old one
16:12 < perdix> jo
16:12 < bdr> yes
16:12 < jmchugh> yes
16:12 -!- jcs|wi [~jcs@BEAKER.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has left #ubuntu ["Leaving"]
16:12 -!- digitalsurgeon [~knoppix@202.147.178.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
16:12 < flubie> me too
16:12 <@sabdfl> that's enough consensus people, it's startling
16:12 < kfischer_> no
16:12 < z4k4ri4> They should be one package with the rest of "controversial pictures"
16:12 <@sabdfl> thanks
16:12 < ogra_> no
16:12 < jsc> eheheh
16:12 < whiprush> heh
16:12 < lkx> we need more of the same votes ;)
16:12 -!- HelloWorld [~Hurricane@a213-22-88-117.netcabo.pt] has left #Ubuntu ["Leaving"]
16:12 < whiprush> we're on a roll
16:12 <@sabdfl> ok, last item in the wiki agenda
16:13 < JanneM> cow?
16:13 < Henrik> Not default this time, but bring back a new login for the next release where the people have slightly more clothes
16:13 < asw> my 2cents: the wrong image found on a person's hard-drive could mean they lose their job or worse.  I think "Ship not installed" is a reasonable comprimise for all artwork in the distribution that could be culturally offensive. (And what isn't offensive in some culture or other?)
16:13 <@sabdfl> OTHER than artwork, is there anything else that we need to look at for cultural analysis in the RC?
16:13 < z4k4ri4> It there bouncing cow in ubuntu? :)
16:13 < JanneM> z4k4ri4: yep!
16:13 < daniels> z4k4ri4: yes, it's distributed with xscreensaver
16:13 -!- regex_racoon [~back_east@wndsnynas01-pool0-a11.wndsny.tds.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:13 < ogra_> sabdfl: taiwanese flags ?
16:13 < daniels> sabdfl: just the typical nation/region/province issues, plus language
16:13 < empop> PLEASE keep the cow! it cracks my gf up!
16:13 < Nonphasis> Henrik, I object to having realistic photos of people, clothes or no
16:13 < z4k4ri4> daniels: which one?
16:13 < jdub> sabdfl: we should remove all flags, and avoid things like the bouncing cow and 'flaccid penis' in the screensavers. 'common sense' approach, basically.
16:13 < Kamion> I *think* we've got most of the obvious geopolitical stuff in the installer sorted, but I still have a bug open about it just in case
16:13 <@sabdfl> i don't know, are there flags?
16:13 < whiprush> the flag thing gnome dealt with last year iirc, so those are gone.
16:14 < crabbox> if wanted we can go really deep like the colours but lets not do it
16:14 <@sabdfl> flaccid penis? yuck. where?
16:14 < jdub> in glsnake
16:14 < kfischer_> Well, as of now, there ins't much in translations, now is there?
16:14 < jdub> it's one of the models
16:14 < Kamion> do we have any maps which show country boundaries?
16:14 < whiprush> heh, glsnake
16:14 < jdub> you can blame spiv for that :)
16:14 -!- joebeastie [~joe@66.17.243.24] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
16:14 <@sabdfl> jeff, no idea you made it into the artwork in person
16:14 < spiv> jdub: The glsnake labels should be turned off by default, if it's not alrady...
16:14 < thom> jdub: no mention of it, i turned off the glsnake labels
16:14 < jdub> spiv: :-)
16:14 < jdub> thom: rock
16:14 < spiv> jdub: I didn't make, or add, that model :P
16:14 < Kamion> if so (maps with boundaries), we'll need to be careful about regions like Kashmir
16:14 < jdub> (we are smarter than novell)
16:14 < whiprush> RH/Fedora has anti phallic patches for xscreensaver iirc.
16:15 < guptan> how can I play wma files in rhythmbox?
16:15 < jdub> (very high ranking VP in utah found that on his screen one day and caused a bit of havoc)
16:15 < kfischer_> whiprush, this is ridiculus. Do they really?
16:15 < JanneM> is anybody actually offended by the cow, though? It's silly, but it doesn't depict a cow being hurt or anything
16:15 < ogra_> sabdfl: i dig through the flags....let you know
16:15 < whiprush> yeah
16:15 < Nonphasis> ah, one of the screensavers has a picture of Mescaline molecule
16:15 < z4k4ri4> guptan: later we have a meeting now
16:15 < TheMuso> guptan: The meeting still goes on.
16:15 < whiprush> yeah the chemistry one might be questionable.
16:15 < ogra_> Jeanne: it's holy in some religions
16:15 <@sabdfl> guptan: about another 10 minutes
16:15 -!- rshortland [~richard@host81-153-92-83.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu
16:15 < whiprush> the one that shows PCP and hemp molecules and whatnot
16:15 -!- chadkiser [chadkiser@dpc6682202126.direcpc.com] has quit []
16:15 < JanneM> ogra_: yes - but they don't forbid depictions
16:16 < ogra_> JanneM: ask z4k, he'll know
16:16 < Keybuk> that's kinda annoying, because the more psychotropic the chemical the more interesting the molecule, generally :-(
16:16 < JanneM> whiprush: the chemistry saver is really fairly inoffensive, though. You have to know what the compounds are to be upset
16:16 < sect2k> so what's wrong with molecules, heck i even found it educational
16:16 -!- ando [~ando@213-202-128-8.bas502.dsl.esat.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:16 < jdub> JanneM: bouncing a sacred animal is a bit over the top, though.
16:16 < whiprush> yeah I'm just pointing it out.
16:16 < Telep> yes that indeed is another issue - having the "random" screensaver on by default is probably not a good idea
16:16 <@sabdfl> i don't think displaying the chemistry will induce the addiction, nor provide the crack
16:16 < whiprush> since someone asked, heh.
16:16 -!- johnl_ [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-64-124.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu
16:17 < JanneM> and just showing the molecule doesn't feel very upsetting
16:17 < z4k4ri4> I agre with that
16:17 < theantix> I think so long as they aren't selected by default, it's not too important to hide bouncing cows, chemicals, etc
16:17 < jdub> Telep: we have a whitelist
16:17 <@sabdfl> ok
16:17 < crabbox> lets stop with the screensavers or soon we got nothing left...
16:17 -!- ploum [~ploum@21-24.CampusNet.ucl.ac.be] has joined #ubuntu
16:17 < Jon_of_the_Wired> screensavers in general are pretty dumb.  Just suspend the monitor.  Who wants to waste power showing a senseless image when no one's around to watch.
16:17 < Kamion> theantix: bouncing cow's one of the things shown by default
16:17  * guptan trying to recall chemical formulae of para-acetamol from his school days
16:17 <@sabdfl> so far i have the following to think about, other than artwork: bouncing cow, flaccid penis, hallucinogenics. anything else? what a day at the office
16:17  * z4k4ri4 doesn't have problem with bouncing cow
16:17 < whiprush> heh
16:17 < Nonphasis> was the gnome splash screen discussed already?
16:18 < bdr> Jon_of_the_Wired:a large fraction of computer users
16:18 < JanneM> Jon_of_the_Wired: I love sitting and staring at a dumb screensaver as a way to focus when I try to think
16:18 < thom> sabdfl: you can clear your mind of flaccid penises, we've fixed that ;-P
16:18 < jdub> Nonphasis: yes
16:18 < Nonphasis> jdub, ok
16:18 < rshortland> There is a simple answer
16:18 < SepheeBear> arent the bouncing cows in other distros?
16:18 < Jon_of_the_Wired> I stand corrected... oy
16:18 < whiprush> the bouncing cow rocks, but if it offends people then just ditch it. There's a million other savers in the package
16:18 < amin2> tucows is a cow too
16:18 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: Will you have conclusion at the end of the meeting?
16:18 < JanneM> again, just don't make them active by default
16:19 < ogra_> amin2: two of them ;)
16:19 < rshortland> just let everyone use windows
16:19 < crabbox> JanneM: correct
16:19 < sladen> sabdfl: xsaver formulae of LSD, Alochol
16:19 <@sabdfl> z4k4ri4: no, it will require some thought, and i'll send an email to -users
16:19 < JanneM> sladen: no formula, just their shapes
16:19 < perdix> rshortland: we are about humanity, your suggestion is cruel
16:19 < cardador> lol
16:19 < z4k4ri4> sabdfl: hopefully doesn't differ too much from the consensus here
16:19 -!- zenwhen [~zenwhen@host-216-78-81-76.bgk.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
16:20 < sect2k> sabdfl: might be nice to update the wiki with conclusions
16:20 -!- marooned [~gsmaclean@c-24-8-2-12.client.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
16:20 < JanneM> amazing - a whole meeting and not a simgle flame
16:20 < crabbox> great
16:20 < theantix> JanneM: indeed!
16:20 < JanneM> this _is_ a nice community
16:20 < guptan> where can I find the wishlist for ubuntu :)
16:20 < TheMuso> JanneM: Thats a good thing IMO
16:20 < ogra_> JanneM: ubuntu !
16:20 < jimi> hehh
16:20 -!- marooned [~gsmaclean@c-24-8-2-12.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu
16:20 < bdr> "as friendly as a gentoo forum"
16:20 <@sabdfl> bdr: we can only dream
16:21 <@sabdfl> thanks everybody
16:21 < whiprush> woo.
16:21 < jsc> welcome
16:21 < z4k4ri4> It is over now?
16:21 < crabbox> cheers sabdfl
16:21 < ogra_> sabdfl: tanhkyoutoo
16:21 < thully> so, will we get the reverted default desktop with an apt-get dist-upgrade
16:21 <@sabdfl> i think we can let the guys in need of support get their fix here now
16:21 < jdub> ooh! ooh! ooh! ubuntu!
16:21 < jdub> ooh! ooh! ooh! ubuntu!
16:21 < rshortland> but it suits the general lack of mautriry that has been shown recently by the community
16:21 < theantix> thanks for getting input and having patience sabdfl 
16:21 < jsc> i really like ubuntu .... one of the best i think
16:21 < bdr> now everyone go find bugs to report...
16:21 <@sabdfl> we're done
16:22 -!- johnl_ [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-64-124.access.uk.tiscali.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
16:22 < z4k4ri4> OK, thank you for listening
16:22  * z4k4ri4 must pay a bigger phone cost this month
--- Log closed Mon Oct 18 16:22:36 2004