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| === johnlevin [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-106-74.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
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| === ogra_ [~ogra@s217-115-139-139.colo.hosteurope.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 04:58 | lamont | mdz: reading scrollback, looks like someone wants bootfloppy support - maybe for the next TB agenda??? |
| === lamont ducks |
| === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-30-146.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 04:59 | mdz | lamont: see /topic :-P |
| === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:00 | mdz | Kamion, mako, elmo, sabdfl: time |
| 05:00 | Kamion | here |
| === mvo_ waves |
| 05:00 | Kamion | haven't seen mako yet today |
| 05:01 | lamont | mdz: lol |
| 05:01 | mdz | calling mako |
| === sivang waves back |
| 05:02 | mdz | mako says he is on his way |
| === Kamion sends nudges in the directions of sabdfl and elmo |
| 05:02 | mako | hi |
| 05:03 | Kamion | opi's first on the agenda; do we have him |
| 05:03 | Kamion | ? |
| 05:03 | mdz | no, we don't |
| 05:03 | Kamion | not in #ubuntu either |
| 05:04 | ogra_ | do i have to add myself to the agenda, or is approval of new members/maintainers a standard proc for the meeting ? |
| === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:04 | mako | ogra_: put yourself on the agenda |
| 05:04 | ogra_ | ok :) |
| 05:05 | Kamion | new maintainers are a fairly standard part of the agenda, but please put it there explicitly |
| 05:05 | Kamion | (as in, NM in general) |
| 05:06 | mako | so.. sabdfl and elmo |
| === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:06 | Kamion | I pinged them on #canonical, no reply yet |
| 05:06 | mdz | 2/4 is a quorum, let's get going |
| 05:06 | mako | should i call sabdfl? |
| 05:06 | mako | i.e., has anyone else called mark? |
| 05:07 | Kamion | not me |
| 05:07 | ogra_ | added :) |
| 05:07 | mako | alright. i'm calling |
| 05:07 | lamont | silbs might be in shouting distance, though, no? |
| 05:09 | Kamion | I'll phone elmo |
| 05:09 | mako | he's on his way |
| 05:09 | mako | 2 minutes |
| === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:09 | mako | or much less than 2 minutes |
| 05:09 | mako | :) |
| 05:09 | sabdfl | hi all |
| 05:10 | Kamion | elmo's coming |
| 05:10 | sivang | hey sabdfl |
| 05:10 | pitti | hi sabdfl |
| === elmo [~james@83-216-141-215.jamest298.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:10 | ogra_ | hi |
| 05:10 | mdz | 4 for 4 |
| 05:10 | Kamion | ok, quorate |
| 05:10 | mako | bam |
| 05:10 | sabdfl | leaders! |
| 05:10 | sabdfl | of the free world! |
| 05:10 | Kamion | first item is Polish community leader |
| 05:11 | sabdfl | is emil here? |
| 05:11 | mako | evidently not |
| 05:11 | Kamion | he's "opi" on IRC I believe, but can't see him around |
| 05:11 | mako | i've emailed or talked thim almost every day this week, but i can't find him now |
| 05:11 | Kamion | 16:11 -!- opi: No such nick/channel |
| 05:11 | mdz | we should add a note to the agenda page |
| 05:12 | mdz | to the effect that if you add an agenda item, you ought to show up to the meeting ;-) |
| 05:12 | sabdfl | what do we want to establish before appointing a new country lead |
| 05:12 | sabdfl | martijn? smurfix? |
| 05:12 | smurfix | I told people to Be There |
| 05:12 | ogra_ | hmm, abelli is missing too, he's the second tpoic... |
| 05:12 | Kamion | mdz: done |
| 05:12 | smurfix | There are a couple of wiki pages about this already. |
| 05:13 | smurfix | Suggestions for improvements welcome |
| 05:13 | smurfix | (notably CountryTeamHowto) |
| 05:13 | sabdfl | is it necessary to have the CC approve country team leads? |
| 05:13 | Kamion | mako and smurfix are the nominated contacts in CountryTeam |
| 05:13 | sabdfl | or could smurfix just liase with them directly? |
| 05:13 | mako | right, i've talked to everyone on the agneda about this |
| 05:14 | sabdfl | for new maintainers we generally whip around and say "do we know this person can handle it" |
| 05:14 | sabdfl | what's the drill for country team leads? |
| 05:14 | Kamion | country team leads are supposed to be community interfaces/liaisons |
| 05:14 | mako | they need to be active in the community |
| 05:14 | mako | and in their country |
| 05:15 | Kamion | so I think we at the very least need to know who they are, and ideally arrange that there's no disagreement about who the point of contact is |
| 05:15 | mdz | they will represent Ubuntu to their locality |
| 05:15 | sabdfl | as far as i'm concerned, if there's only one person who is keen, and they haven't done anything that makes me uncomfortable, we should just let 'em run at it |
| 05:15 | mako | and they need to have at least run things by smurf |
| 05:15 | sabdfl | mako: agreed |
| 05:15 | smurfix | agree |
| 05:15 | sabdfl | and we would help to resolve potential problems |
| 05:15 | mako | sabdfl: right, this is nothing we can't undo |
| 05:15 | Kamion | also leaders are responsible for domain registration |
| 05:15 | Kamion | (it seems) |
| 05:16 | smurfix | we've discussed pre-registering a common domain set |
| 05:16 | smurfix | ubuntu-CC.de for instance |
| 05:16 | mako | that discussion is very active ATM |
| 05:16 | smurfix | s/de/org/ |
| 05:16 | smurfix | duh ;-) |
| 05:16 | mako | i thinks it's probably a bit premature to bring up here :) |
| 05:16 | sabdfl | for example, if there is a country where many ubuntu community members are unhappy with the team lead, we would need to be willing to get to the root of the issue and sort it out |
| 05:16 | smurfix | mako: that was going to be my next sentence |
| 05:16 | mako | realistically, i think in active leads is going to be the biggest problem |
| 05:16 | sabdfl | nl.ubuntu.com would be easy for us to setup internally too |
| 05:16 | sivang | sabdfl: I have asked about this around, I think we need some sort of official master doc in english for people on country teams wanting to approach their govs for investment of time/code/manpower in advancing the ubuntu localization infrastrucutre. most noteable they ask "Who will we get support from? WHat's the official company stand about it?" sort of questions. |
| 05:17 | sabdfl | sivang: good points |
| 05:17 | sabdfl | sivang: could you draft up such a document? |
| 05:17 | sivang | sabdfl: yes, I can. |
| 05:17 | sabdfl | great! |
| 05:17 | johnlevin | Questions were raised about involvement with businesses on the Country Team UK thread (ubuntu-users) as well |
| 05:18 | sivang | sabdfl: I would need some info back from you at the other end on of this ofcourse :) |
| 05:18 | sabdfl | sivang: i'll read and respond to a draft |
| 05:18 | sivang | sabdfl: k, tnx. |
| === mako wants to try to poke me back in the direction of the agenda |
| 05:18 | sabdfl | smurfix: are you happy with abelli and emil? |
| 05:18 | mako | sabdfl: thanks |
| 05:18 | Kamion | johnlevin: seeing as there's no language barrier, it seems to me that a useful UK team would be highly involved in local advocacy; but that's later in the agenda |
| 05:19 | sabdfl | i'm happy for smurfix basically to approve new country team leads unless he has reservations, then bring those to us |
| 05:19 | sabdfl | johnlevin: i'd love to see a uk country team |
| 05:20 | smurfix | sabdfl: I'm more-or-less "not unhappy". I did emphasize that they should show up here though |
| 05:20 | smurfix | I'd suggest to postpone them |
| === sivang notes that there is some frustration among his country team members, mainly due to rosetta not containing the d-i tranlsation po yet. could this be arranged some time soon? also, there's a need to know what's/where's the latest version of transt. in ros is. people noted they don't want to rework a translation already done by the gnome il tems for example. |
| 05:21 | sabdfl | mako, elmo, kamion, are you happy to delegate appointment of country team leads to smurfix for cases where he has no reservations? |
| 05:21 | mako | no, absolutely not |
| 05:21 | Kamion | mako: ? |
| 05:21 | mako | oh wait |
| 05:21 | mako | i mean i have no reservations! |
| 05:21 | ogra_ | lol |
| 05:22 | smurfix | Heh |
| 05:22 | mako | sorry.. i parsed taht wrong |
| 05:22 | mako | yes, i am happy |
| 05:22 | mako | sorry about that |
| 05:22 | mdz | and for cases where he does have reservations, it should come to this council, or something else? |
| 05:22 | sabdfl | this council |
| 05:22 | sabdfl | also, if there is tension or something that needs sorting out he could bring it here |
| 05:23 | sabdfl | kamion, elmo? |
| 05:23 | elmo | sorry, what powahs would the country team leader have? |
| 05:23 | sabdfl | collects the beer money... |
| 05:23 | sivang | sabdfl: hehe |
| 05:23 | elmo | but basically, no objections from me |
| 05:23 | smurfix | I'd still put them on the CC agenda though, but default to OK |
| 05:24 | sabdfl | good point |
| 05:24 | sabdfl | yes, that way it's transparent that we are setting up new teams |
| 05:24 | sivang | smurfix: just to get that documented and archives somehwere.. |
| 05:24 | smurfix | sure |
| 05:24 | sivang | *archived |
| 05:24 | sabdfl | ok cool |
| 05:25 | Kamion | I have no problems with smurfix approving |
| 05:25 | sabdfl | i think that's consensus |
| 05:25 | mdz | I don't see a proper web page about country teams; is there one? |
| 05:25 | mdz | (there should be) |
| 05:25 | sabdfl | so smurfix will lead, people can be appointed by him, he'll announce new appointments to the cc on our agenda |
| 05:25 | Kamion | mdz: wiki/CountryTeams |
| 05:25 | sabdfl | smurfix: thanks for taking this on, it's going to be a big part of 2005 for us |
| 05:25 | mdz | Kamion: I think there ought to be a /teams/country/ |
| === mako would move to chua and hikesh to the malaysian team but they're not here either |
| 05:26 | mdz | wiki pages are invisible to someone who is browsing the site to find information about the project |
| 05:26 | sabdfl | mdz: agreed |
| 05:26 | mdz | also, the new membership process discussed in Mataro needs to be documented |
| 05:26 | sabdfl | are the team pages editable or locked? |
| 05:26 | Kamion | we could link to the wiki from /community/teams |
| === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.169] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:27 | sabdfl | no, mdz is right, new teams are important enough to make the main site |
| 05:27 | Kamion | I think it would be useful to continue to have that on the wiki, since the people doing this stuff usually don't have super website editing powers |
| 05:27 | mdz | they are all editable as far as I see |
| 05:27 | smurfix | sabdfl: editable |
| 05:27 | sabdfl | much of the detail will stay in the wiki where it is more dynamic |
| 05:27 | mako | jiyuu0: we're talkinga bout country team and country team leads |
| 05:27 | mdz | perhaps the top-level teams page should be locked (adding new teams) |
| 05:27 | smurfix | I'm adding some stuff to CTeamLeader atm |
| 05:27 | jiyuu0 | mako, ok |
| 05:27 | sivang | sabdfl: also, what sort of domain names canonical wants to get a hold of ? for instance, in th .il TLD, ubuntulinux.[org|co] .il are already registered, so is ubuntu.co.il, do we need ubuntu.org.il also? this has come up to me while working out the .il domains... |
| 05:28 | mako | jiyuu0: most of the people who were on the agenda today did not show up.. but silbs reminded me that you guys were interested and active in pushing stuff in malaysia |
| 05:28 | mdz | Kamion: even if the /teams/country/ page links to the wiki for the individual teams, /teams/country/ itself should be a proper part of the top-level nav |
| 05:28 | sabdfl | sivang: yes please, and we'll refund any registration costs |
| 05:28 | ogra_ | mdz: isnt that enough ? for NM : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers |
| 05:28 | jiyuu0 | mako, yes... true.. we r currently using ubuntu for our workshops |
| 05:28 | mdz | Kamion: that's only edited when adding new teams, and will contain information about the process of creating a new team, etc. |
| 05:28 | sivang | sabdfl: on my way :) |
| 05:28 | jiyuu0 | and promoting it to our students |
| 05:28 | sabdfl | mdz: agreed. smurfix could you add a country teams page? |
| 05:29 | Kamion | mdz: alright, that's fine by me certainly |
| === mako nods |
| 05:29 | smurfix | Umm, there are already four pages about various aspects of the country team process |
| 05:29 | sabdfl | jiyuu0: would one of you guys like to be a Malaysian country team leader? |
| 05:29 | smurfix | I'm unsure what you think is missing |
| 05:29 | mdz | smurfix: its location within the structure of the site |
| 05:29 | sabdfl | smurfix: hold on, will do it |
| 05:30 | mdz | mako: what about the membership process? |
| 05:30 | jiyuu0 | sabdfl, yes... my partner has written to mako regarding this |
| 05:30 | sabdfl | jiyuu0: great! smurfix is overall leader of the country teams |
| 05:31 | mako | mdz: i got distracted by cd numbers yesterday and i didn't finish writing that up :-/ |
| 05:31 | mdz | mako: the notes at NewDevelopersAndMaintainers should be the basis for a new web page describing the process |
| 05:31 | mdz | ah, ok |
| 05:31 | mako | mdz: i've been working on it |
| 05:31 | mdz | but it's on your list, great |
| 05:31 | mako | mdz: i was trying to get it done for this meeting |
| 05:31 | Kamion | ok, so does that basically deal with the first two agenda items? |
| 05:31 | jiyuu0 | sabdfl, i think smurf should be aware too as we email him regarding our activities and plans |
| 05:31 | Kamion | if so, we can move on |
| 05:32 | sabdfl | johnlevin: any firther comment on a uk team? |
| 05:32 | sabdfl | further, even |
| 05:32 | smurfix | sure |
| 05:32 | johnlevin | The question with the UK-CC is, given that so much of the CC Team tasks are to do with language, translation etc, what would it do? |
| 05:33 | sabdfl | advocacy |
| 05:33 | sabdfl | beer |
| 05:33 | Riddell | I would prefer a GB team since it's the best geographical fit (someone in northern ireland would be more likely to take part in a irish team) |
| 05:33 | Kamion | as I mentioned above, I think much of its activity ought to be in local advocacy |
| 05:33 | Kamion | Riddell: controversial :-) |
| 05:33 | Riddell | johnlevin: it could organise en-gb translation |
| 05:33 | Kamion | en_GB's not really that interesting except to obsessives :) |
| 05:33 | sivang | Kamion: hehe |
| 05:34 | johnlevin | Another question is with geopolitics - with Ireland, Wales (and Welsh) and Scotland |
| 05:34 | Keybuk | Kamion: not just because Debian has a slight history of favouring GB spellings anyway |
| === Riddell obsesses |
| 05:34 | sabdfl | en_GB@leeds is more entertaining ;-) |
| 05:34 | johnlevin | perhaps an England-CC rather than UK or GB? |
| 05:34 | mako | you can have a uk/gb team and someone wants to start a welsh team, that can happen too :) |
| 05:34 | Kamion | (cy_GB) |
| 05:34 | Riddell | johnlevin: which is why with KDE I went with a geographical GB not a political UK |
| 05:34 | sabdfl | as a souf efrikan i'm not sure of the politics of the uk |
| 05:34 | jiyuu0 | mako, are there procedures to sign up as the country team? what is expected for country team to do? |
| 05:35 | mako | jiyuu0: i think hikesh has actually gone over much of this but there are pages on the wiki |
| 05:35 | mako | jiyuu0: i guess you must have not been cc'ed on thos emails |
| 05:35 | Kamion | I'd tend to pick UK and let Northern Irish people work out for themselves where they want to be; we're used to doing that anyway |
| 05:35 | Kamion | issues with UK government are still relevant to people in NI |
| 05:35 | Keybuk | #include <inappropriate reference to terrorism> |
| === jiyuu0 checkin wiki |
| 05:36 | sabdfl | if we get a good team lead, those sorts of issues shouldn't be too much of a problem |
| 05:36 | sabdfl | a country lead might well be responsible for several sub-projects, different languages etc |
| 05:36 | sabdfl | for example, if we had a spanish country lead he would need to be friendly to catalan etc, and probably work across several derivative projects |
| 05:37 | mako | but i don't that would necessarily preclude a catalan team either |
| 05:37 | sabdfl | so a lot of this is up to the character of the team leader |
| 05:37 | sabdfl | mako: agreed |
| 05:37 | mako | overlapping teams is OK if it's something people have considered and feel is worth going ahead with |
| 05:37 | sabdfl | but in the absence of such a person, we definitely want country team leads that are open minded and easy to get on (with), and not overtly political |
| 05:37 | silbs | on the "what do country teams do" question, advocacy is a big part. teams can help out with having an ubuntu presence at conferences and other events, also helping to coordinate local press coverage, we would like to encourage teams to be creative in terms of advocacy events/programs, |
| 05:38 | sabdfl | they can also work with local magazines |
| 05:38 | mdz | yes, conferences definitely |
| 05:38 | mako | just so people know.. i get people emailing at info@* a lot asking about getting involved what i will often do is (a) email smurf it's in a country we have no team or (b) email the country team lead |
| 05:38 | sabdfl | for example if they contact magazines and newspapers, we can provide a good backup for them with access to team leaders for interviews, or cd's for magazine covers etc |
| 05:38 | johnlevin | Here's another UK problem - given that Canonical is based in the UK, there would be overlap between the CC and the Company. |
| 05:38 | smurfix | good point, I'll add that to CountryTeams |
| 05:39 | sabdfl | no prob |
| 05:39 | mako | johnlevin: you're not suggesting the Isle of Man team are you? |
| 05:39 | Kamion | johnlevin: there are only about half a dozen of us actually in the UK though |
| === mako nominates Vic Ferns fo the Isle of Man team |
| 05:39 | mdz | that, and Canonical isn't based in the UK |
| 05:39 | Kamion | (or something, I forget the current number) |
| 05:39 | silbs | there is also a difference between Canonical advocacy and community advocacy. In many ways the latter is more powerful |
| 05:39 | sabdfl | i'd really like a good local team |
| 05:40 | sabdfl | john, are you interested in leading it? |
| 05:40 | johnlevin | Good - gives the gb CC something to do. |
| 05:40 | Kamion | a local team would relieve Canonical people in the UK of the task of doing this sort of thing :) |
| 05:40 | sabdfl | drinking? |
| 05:40 | mdz | exactly |
| 05:40 | johnlevin | sabdfl: yes, but not until February. |
| 05:40 | mdz | sabdfl: nono, obtaining beer |
| 05:40 | Kamion | sabdfl: how do you feel about coordination with people like the campaign for digital rights in the uk? |
| 05:40 | sabdfl | good stuff |
| 05:41 | sabdfl | also patent issues |
| 05:41 | sabdfl | crypto issues |
| 05:41 | Kamion | they're not quite on-topic, but share a number of interests |
| 05:41 | jiyuu0 | how to get listed on the wiki as a MalaysiaTeam? |
| 05:41 | sabdfl | we're likely to have people on board who understand these things well and can help communicate |
| 05:41 | Kamion | (plus one of the CDR cabal's my best mate and lives down the road from me) |
| 05:41 | mako | i think opposition to software patents is quite uncontorverisial in the free software world |
| 05:42 | smurfix | jiyuu0: => CountryTeamHowto in the Wiki, it's all there |
| 05:42 | jiyuu0 | we can have ubuntu on press... shouldn't be prob |
| === jiyuu0 checkin |
| 05:42 | smurfix | (... and I'm not typing that information for the umpteenth time ...) |
| 05:42 | mako | jiyuu0: coordinate with smurfix + do the wiki. it appears you've just done the frst bit |
| 05:42 | johnlevin | There's certainly a lot of digital rights campaigns / organisations in the UK |
| 05:42 | mdz | didn't we decide that we shouldn't call the country teams "country teams" for geopolitical reasons? |
| 05:42 | sabdfl | true |
| 05:42 | Kamion | gar, all the other words are so awkward |
| 05:43 | Kamion | regional teams is about the least bad |
| 05:43 | ogra_ | geo team ? |
| 05:43 | sivang | LOcal COmmunity Teams? |
| === mako would adovcate making teh change if possible |
| 05:43 | mako | sivang: local teams is good |
| 05:43 | mako | and now is the time to do it |
| 05:43 | sabdfl | LoCo? |
| 05:43 | ogra_ | hehe |
| 05:43 | sivang | sabdfl: hehe |
| 05:43 | elmo | oh god, not country teams, then we'll have the Taiwan thing all over again |
| 05:43 | sivang | we are ubuntu LoCo's :) |
| 05:43 | mako | elmo: the taiwan ____ team is on it's way too |
| 05:44 | sivang | sabdfl: LoCo sounds a nice acronym to me, also it's a spanish word :) |
| 05:44 | smurfix | Well, I kindof like the term as it is, but OK ;-) |
| 05:44 | sabdfl | "neo, this is loco"... |
| 05:44 | sivang | hehehe |
| 05:44 | mdz | loco about ubuntu |
| 05:44 | sabdfl | ok done |
| 05:44 | sivang | mdz: exactly |
| 05:44 | johnlevin | Do the LoCo motion |
| 05:44 | smurfix | johnlevin: OUCH |
| 05:44 | sabdfl | aarrrggh.... |
| 05:44 | sivang | johnlevin: ah kylie...:) |
| 05:44 | mako | sabdfl: your joke just became LAW |
| 05:45 | sivang | was bendy coming out like this? ;-) |
| 05:45 | mdz | just say no to bendy |
| 05:45 | sivang | heheheheh |
| 05:45 | mako | most ubuntu names start as jokes |
| 05:45 | sabdfl | erm.. .that was keybuk's troll that I took on |
| 05:45 | mdz | yeah, and I owe him one for it |
| 05:45 | mdz | (and not the good kind) |
| 05:45 | sivang | and Malone, is a tribute, to Bugsy Malone right? |
| 05:45 | sabdfl | plan on sending monica to birmingham? |
| 05:46 | mako | malone is the exception |
| 05:46 | fabbione | or Robert Malone? ;) |
| 05:46 | sabdfl | off topic, let's get back |
| 05:46 | smurfix | OK, who'll do a global Country => Loco replacement in the Wiki? |
| 05:46 | mdz | sabdfl: with a knife in her teeth |
| === mako grins |
| 05:46 | mako | smurfix: rename the pages.. put place holders where the old pages were |
| 05:46 | mdz | smurfix: sounds like your domain ;-) |
| === smurfix can do it |
| 05:46 | sabdfl | so agreed, a uk/gb country team would be great |
| === mako nods |
| 05:46 | mako | i'm all for it |
| 05:46 | sabdfl | johnlevin: would you discuss taking it on post-feb with smurfix? |
| 05:47 | sabdfl | mdz: as long as the knife doesn't end up in my back, i'm happy ;-) |
| 05:47 | Kamion | sivang: bugsy |
| 05:47 | mako | can we move on |
| 05:47 | mako | ? |
| 05:47 | sabdfl | MOU |
| 05:47 | sabdfl | Masters Of The Universe |
| 05:47 | mako | mdz: MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE |
| 05:48 | mdz | yes |
| 05:48 | Mithrandir | we really need a free master of the universe clone. It was such a fun game. |
| 05:48 | sabdfl | elmo: do we have the ability to allow people to upload to universe only? |
| 05:48 | elmo | sabdfl: no, but it's a days work |
| 05:48 | mdz | so, we have solid consensus that we should have a universe maintainer team |
| 05:48 | elmo | tops |
| === jiyuu0 will create the wiki page... but first time to crash |
| 05:48 | Keybuk | Mithrandir: no, we really need a team to think of names that don't start as jokes! :p |
| 05:48 | mdz | and I'd love to send out an announcement inviting people to join |
| 05:49 | mako | jiyuu0: thanks for coming jiyuu0! |
| 05:49 | elmo | do we need that first? |
| 05:49 | sivang | Keybuk: hehe |
| 05:49 | sabdfl | then we appoint a core team of MOTU, who can approve new maintainers for universe |
| 05:49 | mdz | but I need a process to tell them about |
| 05:49 | sabdfl | without reference to the CC |
| 05:49 | jiyuu0 | night all :) |
| 05:49 | jiyuu0 | will be back |
| 05:49 | sabdfl | night jiyuu0 |
| 05:49 | mdz | "talk to this person" (or "these people") |
| 05:49 | sivang | night jiyuu0 |
| 05:49 | sabdfl | mdz, mako, we can tie the MOTU stuff into the Mataro membership roadmap in time |
| 05:50 | Mithrandir | I think we need a process for appointing universe maintainers as well -- we don't want universe to decline in quality -- we want it to become better. |
| 05:50 | elmo | and what about freeze rules and the like - do they apply to the MOTU? |
| === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:50 | sabdfl | Keybuk: *your* jokes in particular? |
| 05:50 | mdz | other Ubuntu teams have leaders, and I think MOTU should too |
| 05:50 | sabdfl | elmo: yes |
| === johnlevin_ [~johnlevin@dsl-80-42-106-115.access.uk.tiscali.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 05:50 | mako | sabdfl: yes |
| 05:50 | mdz | haggai: thanks for coming |
| 05:50 | Keybuk | sabdfl: Masters Of The Universe was yours/mdz ... I'm *not* taking responsibility for it |
| 05:50 | johnlevin_ | sorry - connection dropped |
| 05:50 | sabdfl | i had two potential leaders in mind, chris halls (haggai) and christoph haas, because of his mentoring background |
| === mako be very happy with both of them |
| 05:51 | mdz | I emailed christoph haas, but admittedly not very far in advance, about coming to the meeting |
| 05:51 | mdz | I wasn't able to reach him in time |
| 05:51 | sabdfl | Keybuk: that was my disaster |
| 05:51 | sivang | mdz: I think he woudl lvoe |
| 05:51 | mako | one cocern i have is that we have someone involved with close ties to debian |
| 05:51 | sivang | mdz: that |
| 05:51 | mako | because it's going to involve coordination with debian quite a bit |
| 05:52 | Kamion | both chris and christoph qualify there, I think |
| 05:52 | mdz | I think it goes without saying that this person should not be a Canonical employee |
| 05:52 | mako | both chris and christoph have that i think |
| 05:52 | mako | Kamion: right |
| 05:52 | sivang | Kamion: agreed |
| 05:52 | fabbione | Kamion +1 |
| 05:52 | sabdfl | so let's start with them |
| 05:53 | fabbione | perhaps they could easily share the load... |
| 05:53 | Kamion | +1 |
| 05:53 | mdz | perhaps we should ask them if they want the job? ;-) |
| 05:53 | sabdfl | haggai: how do you feel about this? |
| 05:53 | mako | yes, this is not a one person job.. universe is "sorta big" |
| === haggai trying to work out what is involves |
| 05:53 | sabdfl | it will take 5 or 6 core people just to keep track of maintainers i imagine |
| 05:54 | sabdfl | haggai: basically lead universe |
| 05:54 | mdz | haggai: organizing a group of people to maintain universe, essentially |
| 05:54 | sabdfl | - approve uploaders (maintainers) |
| 05:54 | sabdfl | - when in freeze, perhaps approve uploads |
| 05:54 | sabdfl | that's it for the moment i think, but it's potentially a lot of work |
| 05:55 | Kamion | haggai: there are changes in main that require sweeping changes in universe, sometimes |
| 05:55 | haggai | yes, seems to be quite a bit of work |
| 05:55 | Kamion | like the python2.4 transition |
| 05:55 | mdz | and the libflac transition |
| 05:55 | mdz | both of which are incomplete in universe at this moment |
| 05:55 | mdz | also merges in universe |
| 05:55 | sabdfl | perhaps we should try to gather a larger team to take this on |
| 05:55 | sabdfl | it might be daunting for two people :-) |
| 05:55 | mako | sabdfl: seems sane |
| 05:55 | haggai | yes, I don't think I have the time to take on that sort of load |
| 05:56 | Kamion | I think it could easily be the job of haggai/chrish (if they accepted) to put together a team of people big enough to take this on |
| 05:56 | haggai | OOo and Kubuntu ..and universe? shudder |
| 05:56 | Kamion | I don't think they should be trying to do the whole job themselves; it's at least full-time for two people |
| 05:56 | sivang | haggai: ouch |
| 05:56 | mdz | haggai: there will be a lot of overlap between Kubuntu and universe, I imagine |
| 05:56 | mdz | Kamion: agreed |
| 05:56 | mdz | but we desperately need a starting point |
| 05:56 | mdz | so far we have nothing |
| 05:56 | sabdfl | i agree with mdz that it would be best if the leader was not a canonical employee, but it might be difficult to get someone to take on the task without some compensation for the time |
| 05:57 | sabdfl | haggai: it doesn't require getting the WHOLE of universe right |
| 05:57 | sabdfl | just appointing people who care about pieces of it, and getting THOSE right |
| 05:57 | azeem | the community will expect this, though |
| 05:57 | sabdfl | Kubuntu is a big chunk of it |
| 05:57 | haggai | sabdfl: yes, understood |
| 05:58 | Mithrandir | how about some bounty or compensation for handling it -- can be difficult to measure success, though. |
| 05:58 | mdz | haggai: the assumption is that there is a wealth of labour available in the community which needs primarily to be organized and enabled |
| 05:58 | mako | azeem: you want in? |
| === mako smells fresh blood |
| 05:58 | azeem | hell no |
| 05:58 | sabdfl | Mithrandir: i don't mind offering some basic compensation for a few hours per day for someone who is reliable and consistently present, and well trusted by the community |
| 05:58 | azeem | this is a suicide mission :) |
| 05:59 | haggai | azeem: heh :) |
| 05:59 | johnlevin_ | Just checked log - confirm I'll discuss LoCo GB with Smurfix in Feb |
| 05:59 | sabdfl | even if it is a flight to some distant exotic location :-) |
| 05:59 | sabdfl | johnlevin_: cool thanks |
| 05:59 | sivang | sabdfl: hehe |
| 05:59 | Mithrandir | sabdfl: it would need to be fairly transparent that we are doing it, but I guess that wouldn't be a problem. |
| 05:59 | fabbione | sabdfl: does that include space? ;) |
| 06:00 | sabdfl | its mainly just having a fast process for approving unproven maintainers and unleashing them on universe |
| 06:00 | sabdfl | fabbione: damn, that was a good call ;-) |
| 06:00 | ogra_ | fabbione: moon ? |
| 06:00 | sabdfl | Mithrandir: agreed |
| 06:00 | fabbione | ehhe |
| 06:01 | mako | it's a little unclear where we have ended up |
| 06:01 | mako | to me |
| 06:01 | mako | i.e., the person writing the summary |
| 06:01 | mdz | mako: summary: mdz says "HELP" |
| 06:02 | sabdfl | mdz: have you had a wealth of labour asking to be organised? |
| 06:02 | azeem | 'approving unproven maintainers and unleashing them on universe' sounds like people will jump to do things differently than Debian, which will result in even more differences |
| 06:02 | sivang | we should haev a small start maybe, approve a small set of pkgs for MOTU NMs most demanded by the community and see how it develops... |
| 06:02 | mako | alright.. so we we need to keep thinking about this and finding a group of leaders |
| 06:02 | haggai | I'd like to think this over a little; in principle I'm willing to do it |
| 06:02 | mako | haggai: that's fair |
| 06:03 | mako | haggai: it's a little unfair to have the group jump you in irc and demand some soret of decision right away |
| 06:03 | mako | :) |
| 06:03 | mdz | sabdfl: perhaps not a wealth so far, but certainly enough that I am confident there are many more who have not stepped forward for lack of clear direction |
| 06:03 | haggai | mako: :) |
| 06:03 | mako | azeem: which is why i said i wanted the leads to have strong debian connections |
| 06:03 | haggai | I certainly have had quite a few people mailing me re Kubuntu, so I guess there's likely to be even more wrt universe in general |
| 06:03 | sabdfl | ok, elmo, could you invest that day and get us the ability to approve someone as an uploader to universe / multiverse? |
| 06:04 | mako | azeem: to coordinate with debian/upstream, minimize unnecessry deltas, let them know How We Do Things |
| 06:04 | johnlevin_ | Got to go; catch you all later. |
| 06:04 | sabdfl | cheers johnlevin_ |
| 06:04 | elmo | sabdfl: will do tomorrow then |
| 06:04 | sabdfl | great |
| === thom [~thom@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:04 | mdz | haggai: any Kubuntu guys that seem reasonably sane to you should be able to upload to universe, as far as I'm concerned |
| 06:04 | mako | thom: master of masters of the universe? (anyone who joins this channel is vulnerable) |
| 06:04 | sabdfl | then mdz, kamion, everyone, let's just approve any known sane people who ask |
| 06:05 | haggai | mdz: ok, Jonathan Riddell falls into that category |
| 06:05 | sabdfl | done |
| 06:05 | mdz | sabdfl: so what do i write in the announcement email? |
| 06:05 | mdz | sabdfl: show up to the next community council meeting? |
| === sivang notes for a record fast approval process. :-) |
| 06:05 | mako | mdz: sure, run it by me |
| 06:05 | amu | mdz: probably cardman |
| 06:05 | thom | mako: hell no |
| 06:05 | mako | mdz: draft it on the wiki and i'll hack on it a bit too |
| 06:06 | mdz | that means another 2 weeks of zero progress |
| 06:06 | mdz | and that's too long |
| 06:06 | sivang | mdz: someone can sponser downloads in the meantime maybe |
| 06:06 | mako | thom: 17:58 < azeem> hell no |
| 06:06 | sabdfl | no, people can approach MOTU (haggai, chrish, anyone else we appoint to that) or any TB or CC member and be approved immediately |
| 06:06 | mdz | sivang: no, I don't want this to be associated with similar (arduous) processes in Debian |
| 06:07 | sabdfl | if that person has reservations, we would refer to MOTU |
| 06:07 | sivang | mdz: ok, very good point |
| 06:07 | sabdfl | or TB / CC |
| 06:07 | mdz | elmo: can I get a mail alias set up which points to that group of people? |
| 06:07 | mako | elmo, mdz: add me to that list |
| 06:07 | mdz | mako: you're a CC member |
| 06:07 | sabdfl | let's think a little about mechanics |
| 06:07 | elmo | which group of people? |
| 06:07 | mdz | elmo: <sabdfl> no, people can approach MOTU (haggai, chrish, anyone else we appoint to that) or any TB or CC member and be approved immediately |
| 06:07 | sabdfl | elmo, we have a non-chinstrap upload place right? |
| 06:07 | mako | mdz: so *that's* what i'm doing here |
| 06:07 | mako | :) |
| 06:07 | Kamion | sabdfl: upload.ubuntu.com |
| 06:07 | elmo | have haggai and chrish even agreed to this? :) |
| 06:08 | elmo | sabdfl: yes, what kamion said |
| 06:08 | sabdfl | cool |
| 06:08 | mako | elmo: they've agreed to think about it :) |
| 06:08 | elmo | we still need keyring handling to be done by me |
| 06:08 | sabdfl | now what happens if a universe uploader uploads an ubuntu version of a package |
| 06:08 | sabdfl | then a new one gets uploaded to sid |
| 06:08 | mdz | sabdfl: merge-o-matic should file a bug in the universe bugzilla |
| 06:08 | Kamion | we don't have to worry about that until we're out of UVF, do we? |
| 06:08 | sabdfl | will merge-o-matic help? |
| 06:09 | mdz | sabdfl: unless we're in freeze |
| 06:09 | sabdfl | UVF? |
| 06:09 | Kamion | since we're not automerging main, we shouldn't be automerging universe |
| 06:09 | haggai | sabdfl: once there's an .ubuntu there is no automatic merge |
| 06:09 | Kamion | upstream version freeze |
| 06:09 | mvo_ | upstream-version-freeze |
| 06:09 | Kamion | haggai: for main, we get automatic merge attempts filed as bugs for us |
| 06:09 | mdz | but not anymore for Hoary |
| 06:10 | haggai | yes, I assume we're talking about post hoary |
| 06:10 | sabdfl | automerging switched off now? |
| 06:10 | Kamion | 'bout a week ago |
| 06:10 | sabdfl | ok |
| 06:10 | sabdfl | so the bugs are heads-up rather than notifications that it happened |
| 06:10 | mdz | sabdfl: we still generate the output in case we need it, but don't file bugs |
| 06:11 | mdz | in fact, tomorrow is the deadline to close all the bugs |
| 06:11 | sabdfl | is the merge-o-matic output available to non-chinstrap uploaders-to-universe? |
| 06:11 | elmo | merge-o-matic is on rookery, i.e. available to the world |
| 06:11 | mdz | sabdfl: absolutely; it's on people.u.c |
| 06:11 | Keybuk | sabdfl: sure, it's on people.ubuntu.com |
| 06:11 | sabdfl | cool |
| 06:11 | sabdfl | WE ROCK |
| 06:11 | sabdfl | ahem |
| 06:11 | Kamion | I think we're pretty non-chinstrapped now |
| 06:11 | Treenaks | uh.. hmm.. I'm late |
| 06:11 | sabdfl | great |
| === mako seconds the WE ROCK motion |
| 06:12 | sabdfl | hiya Treenaks |
| 06:12 | fabbione | cya Treenaks |
| === mako nods to Treenaks |
| 06:12 | Keybuk | http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/ for the merged sources, http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/ for the incorrectly classified "current patches" |
| 06:12 | sabdfl | Treenaks: could you check scrollback? |
| 06:12 | ogra_ | hi Treenaks |
| 06:12 | Keybuk | I think haggai noted both in his docs |
| 06:12 | mdz | Kamion: except for canonical.com baz archives |
| 06:12 | Treenaks | sabdfl: I'm reading |
| 06:12 | Kamion | yep |
| 06:12 | mako | so.. a few more things on the agenda |
| 06:13 | mako | can i push us forward a bit? |
| 06:13 | elmo | mdz: feature for most of the stuff on there |
| 06:13 | Kamion | the only times I've used chinstrap recently are (a) cdimage stuff, logging into little, (b) canonical.com baz archives, (c) proofreading pitti's security announcements before they go out |
| 06:13 | Kamion | mako: please do |
| 06:13 | sabdfl | great |
| 06:13 | mako | mdz: the next one is yours as well |
| 06:13 | mako | mdz: content filtering |
| 06:13 | mdz | mako: that is not mine |
| 06:13 | mdz | that is John Moser |
| 06:13 | mako | mdz: i have no idea what you're talking about here |
| 06:13 | Kamion | that was bluefoxicy's |
| 06:13 | mdz | who didn't show |
| 06:13 | sivang | is he here? |
| 06:13 | mako | mdz: sorry... |
| 06:13 | mako | i still have no idea what he's talking about |
| 06:14 | mako | i'll ping him |
| 06:14 | mako | and lets move on.. if he shows up, we can handle it then |
| 06:14 | Kamion | I've pinged him on #ubuntu |
| 06:14 | Kamion | yep |
| 06:14 | mdz | mako: he posted to ubuntu-devel on the same subject |
| === spacey [~spacey@flits101-191.flits.rug.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:14 | mako | ok. so the next one *is* your mdz |
| === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:14 | mdz | http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-January/002856.html |
| 06:14 | mako | "Getting porting/architecture teams operational" |
| 06:14 | mdz | ok |
| 06:14 | mdz | we've said that we want to have teams for the architecture ports |
| 06:15 | mdz | especially the non-mainstream ones like ia64 |
| 06:15 | mdz | I'd like for those to actually exist |
| 06:15 | mako | i'm in support of that |
| 06:15 | mako | in fact, i thought we'd already done it |
| 06:15 | sabdfl | the difficult one being ia64 right now? |
| 06:15 | mdz | currently we have an amd64 team led by Mithrandir |
| 06:15 | Kamion | that would kind of imply non-Canonical people being active in those ports ... |
| 06:15 | fabbione | didn't the ia64 team kinda vanished? |
| 06:15 | elmo | wjat's involved in having a team for them? |
| 06:15 | mdz | and an ia64 team which is sort of vapour |
| 06:15 | mako | although i know ther ewas some fallout around ia64 |
| 06:16 | mako | right.. at least one of the more active folks early on has been called away to other things |
| 06:16 | mako | lamont, you were interested in amd64, no? |
| 06:16 | mdz | first T-bone said he would do it, then he had other obligations, then T Simonnet said he would, but I've been unable to even reach him |
| === bluefoxicy [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:16 | bluefoxicy | I did what now? |
| 06:16 | Kamion | Discuss potential applications of content filtering and ContentControl |
| 06:16 | mdz | bluefoxicy: you proposed an agenda item for the community council meeting (which is what this is) |
| 06:16 | lamont | mako: more ia64 than amd64 |
| 06:16 | sabdfl | bluefoxicy: content filtering, we'll get to it in a sec |
| 06:17 | mako | bluefoxicy: get ready to talk about "Discuss potential applications of content filtering and ContentControl" but not yet |
| 06:17 | sabdfl | mdz: if you don't think ia64 is doable for hoary, you can kill it |
| 06:17 | bluefoxicy | oh ok |
| === bluefoxicy just w oke up and saw his name. |
| 06:17 | mdz | sabdfl: currently, no one cares about it enough to actually do work except lamont |
| 06:17 | mako | we can put out a call for ia64 work on -news with the summayr of this meeting |
| 06:17 | mdz | sabdfl: and we need lamont for other things |
| 06:17 | sabdfl | i hate to kill a port after spending a small car on port buildd's :-) |
| 06:18 | smurfix | sabdfl: trade them in for a small car then ;-) |
| 06:18 | sabdfl | but we were clear that we wanted community teams to lead, and we would provide the infrastructure |
| === Method [~Method@Method.developer.gentoo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:18 | mako | well, i suspect it will be resurrected |
| 06:18 | Kamion | there's kill and there's postpone ... |
| 06:18 | mdz | oh hey, I got a response from T Simonnet |
| === lamont has been trying to drum up interest in the hp croud, but not very aggressively |
| 06:18 | mdz | he has a small army of students that he says he can put to work |
| 06:19 | mako | mdz: is T Simonnet in a place to at least coordinate a bit? |
| 06:19 | fabbione | sounds good :-) |
| 06:19 | sabdfl | ok, maybe i should call him? |
| 06:19 | mdz | but it sounds like they don't know much about how to get things working |
| 06:19 | mdz | they have hardware already |
| 06:19 | lamont | they have better hardware than the dc |
| 06:19 | mdz | they tried to install a random hoary ISO, which of course didn't work because they hadn't fixed the installer yet, and they filed a bug saying it didn't work |
| 06:19 | sabdfl | i suspect he's a varsity guy with a heavy load already and not able to do much bug triage, that's what we mostly need |
| 06:19 | mdz | we need people to actually fix things |
| 06:19 | elmo | lamont: that's not hard |
| 06:20 | lamont | elmo: exactly. step 1) get HP to donate it. |
| 06:20 | elmo | ia64 already costs $$$ without buying the good stuff |
| 06:20 | lamont | yeah |
| 06:20 | mdz | a bunch of people filing bugs about how ia64 works is a step in the wrong direction ;-) |
| 06:20 | mdz | s/works/doesn't work/ |
| 06:20 | mako | mdz: i can try to get you some more bodies to hack on this |
| === Treenaks has read up on scrollback |
| 06:20 | mdz | I think someone should talk to T Simonnet |
| 06:20 | sabdfl | i'm happy to call him |
| 06:20 | lamont | what we need most right now is someone with time and hardware to figure out what's wrong with anna in d-i |
| 06:20 | mdz | about what this role means and find out whether he is able and willing to fill it |
| 06:20 | Kamion | the installer bug in question is actually fairly hard to fix, in fairness; I've poked at it a little but didn't get very far |
| 06:21 | mdz | sabdfl: you were CCed on the email; I don't have a phone number but can ask |
| 06:21 | lamont | mdz++ |
| 06:21 | sabdfl | i think we need someone of Mithrandir's capability to lead it |
| === Mithrandir blushes |
| 06:21 | mako | sabdfl: ask him if he's willing ot coordinate.. if he is, let me know and i will put out a call for help and we coordinate around him or whoever else |
| 06:21 | sabdfl | if we don't have a good lead, it's not going to be ready for hoary |
| === lamont has specifically been trying to take a hands-off approach to his ia64-driving efforts |
| 06:22 | elmo | Kamion: is it really ubuntu specific ? |
| 06:22 | sabdfl | i expect his students will be able to fix a lot of small bugs, but not lead hard stuff |
| 06:22 | mdz | I've emailed him proposing a phone call |
| === murf [~murf@193.165.214.35] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:22 | Treenaks | re: the advocacy thing.. a month ago I ordered 200 more CDs.. haven't been sent yet, is this known? |
| 06:22 | Kamion | elmo: seems to me, Debian hasn't had any similar reports that I know of |
| 06:22 | lamont | elmo: it winds up using a package name as a pointer... |
| 06:22 | fabbione | elmo: doesn't joeyh install automatically on ia64? |
| 06:22 | Kamion | "seems to be" |
| 06:22 | Kamion | yes, he does |
| 06:22 | mako | Treenaks: talk to me aftewards. they should ahve been |
| 06:22 | mdz | is there anyone who would be interested in leading the powerpc team? |
| 06:22 | Treenaks | mako: ok |
| === murf [~murf@193.165.214.35] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] |
| 06:22 | sabdfl | that can certainly be a canonical person |
| 06:22 | mako | Treenaks: all cds ordered more than 2 weeks ago have been sent |
| 06:23 | sivang | mako: mine's also lost/delayed etc :) |
| 06:23 | Kamion | mm, I'm interested in taking part in powerpc obviously, not sure about leading |
| 06:23 | elmo | ditto |
| 06:23 | mako | sivang: we've already talked about that but this is not really the place to have this discussion :) |
| 06:23 | sivang | mako: k, sorry |
| 06:23 | mdz | pitti? |
| 06:23 | sabdfl | overload... |
| 06:23 | pitti | mdz: here |
| 06:23 | Kamion | but I'm already doing the powerpc work that impinges on stuff I do without the need for a team blessing :) |
| 06:23 | mdz | pitti: you care about powerpc, yes? |
| 06:24 | pitti | mdz: yes :-) |
| 06:24 | elmo | yeah, 'cos pitti's short of stuff to do :p |
| 06:24 | Kamion | it would be nice to have somebody involved who cared enough to get the non-newworld-powermac subarches going sanely |
| 06:24 | Kamion | preferably in a not-totally-crackful way |
| 06:24 | mdz | I don't think there's a huge amount of work for the team leader to do at this point |
| 06:24 | pitti | in fact I was hacking, so I got a bit dragged away from the discussion, sorry |
| 06:24 | mdz | but I think it's important that the team exist and have a point of contact |
| 06:24 | Kamion | mdz: oh, there's lots of powerpc stuff to do ... |
| 06:24 | fabbione | Kamion: what about involving benh? |
| 06:24 | mdz | so that people in the community who are interested in it have a place to go |
| 06:24 | sabdfl | does the team lead need to have a huge amount of d-i experience? |
| 06:24 | sabdfl | or is it mostly "get it to build" |
| 06:25 | pitti | mdz: I can be the contact, but I don't have an oldworld |
| 06:25 | sabdfl | benh? |
| 06:25 | mdz | pitti: we don't even support oldworld, do we? |
| 06:25 | Kamion | sabdfl: don't think so, it's more being familiar with the variety of machines that exist |
| 06:25 | pitti | if we could get benh, this would be great |
| 06:25 | fabbione | sabdfl: he is a ppc kernel guy |
| 06:25 | pitti | mdz: AFAIK they don't even boot now |
| 06:25 | Kamion | mdz: no, but imho we should, we get a fair few requests for it |
| 06:25 | Kamion | and people have made Ubuntu boot on them |
| 06:25 | elmo | oh! |
| 06:25 | Kamion | there's a howto on the wiki |
| 06:25 | elmo | I know what the powerpc team could do, is get ppc64 going |
| 06:25 | mdz | Kamion: exactly the sort of thing to be delegated to the team lead ;-) |
| 06:25 | Kamion | mm, yes |
| 06:25 | sabdfl | i'm happy to offer a bounty for the subarches kamion is concerned about to benh |
| 06:26 | mdz | and ppc64, for that matter |
| 06:26 | Kamion | benh is a kernel hacker, from his point of view he's already done the work he needs to do on those sorts of machines |
| === lamont claims hppa point-of-contact. :) |
| 06:26 | Kamion | where benh would be good would be for ppc64 knowledge |
| === fabbione claims sparc64 :-) |
| 06:26 | Kamion | he knows a lot about the kernel/toolchain level of that |
| 06:26 | sabdfl | a kernel guy is likely to have a great understanding of arch issues |
| 06:26 | fabbione | Kamion: well i guess on a bounty base he can revive his interest ;) |
| === smurfix will NOT claim m68k. ;-) |
| 06:26 | pitti | mdz: I would not mind if powerpc@ubuntu.com is an alias to me, but I think I won't have much time to actually hack on this stuff, at least not right now |
| 06:27 | Kamion | benh did write yaboot, of course |
| 06:27 | sabdfl | pitti: agreed, i think you have a full load, you are doing very well at that |
| 06:27 | Kamion | but benh is employed by IBM; I'm not sure you'll lure him away |
| 06:27 | sabdfl | where's benh work? |
| 06:27 | sabdfl | bounty, not job <yet> |
| 06:27 | fabbione | sabdfl: france iirc |
| 06:27 | sabdfl | aaarrgghhhh..... |
| 06:27 | mdz | hehehe |
| 06:28 | sivang | LOLs |
| 06:28 | mdz | worst possible answer |
| === Mithrandir chuckles |
| 06:28 | fabbione | ain |
| 06:28 | ogra_ | he |
| 06:28 | sabdfl | bounty then |
| 06:28 | fabbione | ain't MY fault this time! |
| 06:28 | fabbione | blame GTK! |
| === smurfix seems to miss a it of history here |
| 06:28 | smurfix | s/it/bit/ |
| === Kamion wonders about somebody like Colin Leroy |
| 06:28 | bluefoxicy | <Weird al> ou ju di jure de eifle toweur! . . . FRENCH TOAST!!! |
| 06:28 | Mithrandir | Kamion: wanting to increase the amount of Colins we have? :) |
| 06:28 | sabdfl | fabbione: could you ping benh, ask him if he's interested? |
| 06:28 | elmo | smurfix: france's contracting laws were designed by the maquis de sade |
| 06:28 | Kamion | (did the fan support for newer powermacs, debian-powerpc regular) |
| 06:28 | mdz | the work for ppc64 is basically to build and test a ppc64 kernel package, no? |
| 06:28 | sabdfl | volunteer or bounty basis, so as not to conflict with ibm commitments? |
| 06:29 | fabbione | sabdfl: he is in holidays thiese days but i will as soon as he is back |
| 06:29 | mako | elmo: heh |
| 06:29 | thom | benh is in canberra |
| 06:29 | Kamion | mdz: and resolve any userspace issues that come up |
| 06:29 | bluefoxicy | what are we discussing right now, I"m seeing france and things about where people are vacationing |
| 06:29 | Kamion | mdz: and figure out what the hell to do about the installer |
| 06:29 | Treenaks | thom: we could make bob2 stalk him! |
| 06:29 | bluefoxicy | and stalking |
| 06:29 | thom | i'm sure he does anyway |
| 06:29 | Kamion | bluefoxicy: we're talking about porting teams, which is on the agenda |
| 06:29 | Kamion | bluefoxicy: context is everything |
| 06:29 | bluefoxicy | ah, that explains the talk about all the other countries :) |
| 06:29 | sabdfl | further, it may be a good way to initiate a relationship with IBM |
| === bluefoxicy just woke up |
| 06:30 | sabdfl | Power5 is going to be a big deal |
| 06:30 | Mithrandir | sabdfl: at least as long as they don't think we're just grabbing him and running off. |
| 06:30 | sabdfl | he's FRENCH |
| 06:30 | sabdfl | ok, mdz, i'll talk with t simonnet |
| 06:30 | mdz | he's either in france or in australia |
| 06:30 | mako | sabdfl: is the implication that they will be happy we're taking him then? |
| 06:30 | thom | he's in australia |
| 06:30 | fabbione | sabdfl: i will put you two in contanc if that's fit your idea |
| 06:30 | mdz | sabdfl: ok, I'll open a dialogue with benh about ppc64 |
| 06:31 | thom | working at ozlabs in canberra |
| 06:31 | sabdfl | ok |
| 06:31 | mdz | fabbione: please send him to me |
| 06:31 | fabbione | mdz: ok fine with me |
| 06:31 | sabdfl | in the absence of a strong lead for ia64 it's mdz's decision whether to lift the commitment that ia64 will ship with hoary |
| 06:31 | fabbione | mdz: he hangs often on #debian-kernel FYI |
| === mako nods |
| 06:31 | dilinger | he does |
| 06:31 | mdz | ia64 will not ship with hoary unless there is someone standing behind it |
| 06:31 | Kamion | ozlabs? that's paul mackerras' hangout too |
| 06:32 | Kamion | (another ppc64 guy) |
| === mako nods |
| 06:32 | sabdfl | do you guys think i should be reconsidering my position and hiring a port lead for ia64, power5, ppc etc? |
| 06:32 | thom | Kamion: yah |
| 06:32 | mdz | sabdfl: honestly I don't think that ia64 is very relevant at this point |
| 06:32 | sabdfl | or should we stick with core3, plus community driven ports? |
| 06:32 | mdz | sabdfl: ppc64 much more so |
| 06:32 | Mithrandir | sabdfl: I think bountying them (like we did for amd64) could be useful. |
| 06:32 | fabbione | sabdfl: i don't think you should. |
| 06:33 | mako | sabdfl: i still think it's worth trying to do this w/ the community.. amd64 seems to be working great |
| 06:33 | mako | but yeah, bountying in strategic places can be great |
| 06:33 | Kamion | power5 is an enhancement to a current port rather than a new port, really |
| 06:33 | Kamion | although that's a fineish distinction |
| 06:33 | sabdfl | mako: for amd64 we did have a leader's incentive though, perhaps we should consider the same for other arch's |
| 06:33 | Kamion | from our point of view it doesn't involve the same kind of huge buildd commitment |
| 06:33 | elmo | gar |
| 06:33 | mako | sabdfl: i think it's worth considering |
| 06:33 | elmo | I coudn't read "core3" without mentally adding fedore in front of it |
| 06:34 | sabdfl | ok, let's chat to benh and t simmonet |
| 06:34 | sabdfl | next? |
| 06:34 | mako | bluefoxicy: you're on |
| 06:34 | mdz | fabbione: kernel team |
| 06:34 | mdz | oh, nm |
| 06:34 | mdz | this item doesn't sound particularly like community council domain, but maybe I've misunderstood |
| 06:34 | mdz | I'd like to hear bluefoxicy's description |
| 06:36 | mdz | right, so |
| 06:36 | mdz | shall we queue that one again, and move on to the kernel team? |
| 06:36 | bluefoxicy | hi |
| === bluefoxicy was writing e-mail |
| 06:37 | bluefoxicy | Uh, there's things like dan's guardian that can do content filtering based on the content of pages et al. This is useful in a number of situations if deployed well. |
| 06:37 | fabbione | sparc64? |
| 06:37 | Treenaks | content filtering? |
| 06:37 | bluefoxicy | . . what are we on? Content filtering or kernel? |
| 06:37 | Treenaks | great, netsplit |
| 06:37 | fabbione | (sorry i got lost in the netsplit) |
| 06:37 | mdz | we just lost half the council |
| === OddAbe19 [~OddAbe19@pcp02542642pcs.lncstr01.pa.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === sivang [sivan@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === Riddell [jr@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === Kamion [~cjwatson@host81-153-126-219.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| === reformed [nobody@junkybox.pacific.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:38 | mdz | bluefoxicy: you're up |
| 06:38 | smurfix | Hmm... => skip^2 ? |
| === thom [~thom@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:38 | sabdfl | bluefoxicy: ? |
| 06:38 | sabdfl | can iptables redirect only traffic destined for apps running as a particular user? |
| 06:38 | Treenaks | ok.. content filtering I think, still? |
| 06:38 | sabdfl | halllaaaoou? |
| 06:38 | sabdfl | i think we've exhausted ourselves |
| 06:38 | mako | right yes |
| 06:38 | crimsun | you're up (content filtering) |
| 06:38 | crimsun | though...yeah, netsplit. |
| 06:38 | Kamion | mako: that was my reaction too, particularly given that nobody's responded to the ubuntu-devel post yet |
| 06:38 | Kamion | gah |
| 06:38 | fabbione | WAIT GUYS |
| === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] |
| === jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@219.95.59.169] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:39 | fabbione | we are in the middle of the usual mess |
| === sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:39 | sabdfl | hello? |
| === bluefoxicy [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:39 | Treenaks | sabdfl: hello |
| 06:39 | ogra_ | hi :) |
| 06:39 | fabbione | sabdfl: it's a netsplit |
| 06:39 | mako | sabdfl: hola |
| 06:39 | fabbione | kist wait |
| 06:39 | sabdfl | ah |
| 06:39 | fabbione | just wait :-) |
| === bluefoxicy [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:39 | fabbione | it will go back automatically |
| 06:39 | mdz | fabbione: it already did |
| 06:39 | mdz | everyone is back |
| 06:39 | bluefoxicy | uh. I got killed off and stuff, what are we on, and is the netsplit over |
| 06:39 | fabbione | no it splitted again |
| 06:39 | sabdfl | ok, i lost sync a while back there |
| 06:40 | fabbione | sabdfl: everybody did ;) |
| 06:40 | mako | it was a bad split |
| 06:40 | sabdfl | ok |
| 06:40 | crimsun | sabdfl: yes, with the owner module and --uid-owner |
| 06:40 | mdz | bluefoxicy: we need to hear from you about content filtering |
| 06:40 | bluefoxicy | ok |
| 06:40 | Treenaks | crimsun: but that's hideously slow, isn't it? |
| 06:40 | mako | bluefoxicy: i think your proposal, especially the part about increasing the infrastructure, is great |
| 06:40 | crimsun | Treenaks: it certainly needs optimisation, yes :) |
| 06:40 | bluefoxicy | mako: thanks :) |
| 06:40 | smurfix | Please re-do the kernel stuff later, half of us didn't get it. |
| 06:40 | bluefoxicy | anyway |
| 06:41 | mako | that said, i'm not convined there is a demonstrated need for the team |
| 06:41 | bluefoxicy | The idea of content filtering is that you can heuristically scan pages for content indicative of certain subject matter |
| 06:41 | mako | that doesn't mean there's isn't a demonstrated need for the *work* |
| 06:41 | mdz | bluefoxicy: if I read your email correctly, you propose that a team be created for this project, but you are not willing to participate? |
| 06:41 | bluefoxicy | this subject matter may be inappropriate for some work environments, such as schools, businesses, public institutions, libraries, etc |
| 06:41 | sabdfl | bluefoxicy: this is deep foo, it needs someone with a clear vision and the tech skills to execute it |
| 06:41 | bluefoxicy | mdz: I put a mail on the devel list to try and determine if anyone wants to form a team |
| 06:42 | mdz | smurfix: we haven't gotten to kernel yet |
| 06:42 | mako | well there is no *way* we are going to come up with a list of filters |
| 06:42 | mdz | bluefoxicy: there were no followups that I saw |
| 06:42 | sabdfl | bluefoxicy: i'm happy for you to advocate for the team, and would vote for it if it had a strong lead |
| 06:42 | bluefoxicy | mdz: I know. |
| 06:42 | Method | mako: dansguardian has filters included in the distribution, and updates for blacklisted sites, etc |
| 06:42 | mako | *everybody* will disagree with everyone else, and probably disagree with themselves |
| 06:42 | Method | that wouldn't be the distro's job at all |
| 06:42 | bluefoxicy | I can't be a strong lead because I am highly inexperienced. I've set up and tested dan's guardian, but i've never actually configured it. |
| 06:42 | sabdfl | i don't think we should discuss it more here, other than perhaps to check out how cc members feel about having the functionality there |
| 06:42 | mdz | I don't think it's appropriate to create a team for this |
| 06:42 | mako | but in terms of the instrastructure, that seems solid |
| 06:43 | Kamion | Method: it's the distro's job to select from the various options on offer; dansguardian is just one of a number |
| 06:43 | mdz | if there were someone to do the work, we could discuss a possible bounty and work from there |
| 06:43 | sabdfl | as i understand it you want to be able to force-filter HTTP traffic directed at specific users |
| 06:43 | bluefoxicy | sabdfl: yes. Here I only wanted to discuss why it is useful, but if nobody's going to contend it, is there a point? |
| 06:43 | mako | mdz: i think a deam could be appropriate but not yet |
| 06:43 | mdz | if it becomes a reality, a team could form to maintain it |
| 06:43 | mdz | mako: agreed |
| 06:43 | Method | Kamion: thats fine but the offerings will certainly have good filters out of box, the distro shouldn't be making those determinations |
| 06:43 | sabdfl | some of the cc guys might be uncomfortable with filtering as a default-available option |
| 06:43 | mako | i like the idea of having teams form around locus of people doing work on a common project |
| 06:43 | mako | i haven't seen that yet |
| 06:43 | bluefoxicy | sabdfl: yes, as a configuration option I want the administrator to be able to do force filtering. I've set this up here with squid, and it only works for unencrypted connections. |
| 06:43 | Kamion | Method: sure, just saying that it's not the job of this meeting to mandate implementation |
| 06:44 | mako | sabdfl: i'm uncomfortable with any set of filters being on by default, yes |
| 06:44 | sabdfl | mako: agreed, emphatically |
| 06:44 | Mithrandir | mako: absolutely. |
| 06:44 | bluefoxicy | Filtering should be available but off by default. |
| 06:44 | mako | sabdfl: the filters themselves are what i think are controversial, not hte functionality |
| 06:44 | mdz | mako: this would presumably be an installation option targeted at parents and extremist governments ;-) |
| 06:44 | sabdfl | except for the "Ubuntu Dear Leader" one |
| 06:44 | mdz | and not by default |
| 06:44 | sabdfl | <duck> |
| 06:44 | bluefoxicy | I also would like to mention that filtering can be made to specifically filter viruses if you use dan's guardian with clamav using a certain plug-in :) |
| 06:44 | mako | it will automatically block all sites critical of sabdfl |
| 06:45 | Mithrandir | mdz: I'm sure parent's will love being grouped with extremist governments. :P |
| 06:45 | sabdfl | well, sabdfl's naming approach, specifically |
| 06:45 | bluefoxicy | So the applications are wider than just filtering porn and drugs |
| 06:45 | smurfix | mdz: some extremist governments don't need filters in ubuntu, they already do it in the border routers. |
| 06:45 | mako | bluefoxicy: clearly |
| 06:45 | mdz | Mithrandir: they have a surprising amount in common |
| 06:45 | sabdfl | ok, i think we have consensus that this would be fine as an option |
| 06:45 | smurfix | sabdfl: ... a carefully considered one. |
| 06:45 | Method | smurfix: in the US local filters are required for things like schools, libraries, and so on |
| 06:45 | Mithrandir | mdz: I know, I was a kid once. |
| 06:46 | mako | bluefoxicy: you are empowered to do the work, create that nexus work :) |
| 06:46 | mdz | Mithrandir: no, surely not! :-) |
| 06:46 | sabdfl | bluefoxicy: you have your work cut out for you. you'll need to hang out in the appropriate upstream venues to get someone excited about this |
| 06:46 | bluefoxicy | Method has a good point. In some places such filters are required :) |
| 06:46 | mako | bluefoxicy: and then, when you have what looks like a team, we'll be happy to bless it as one :) |
| 06:46 | sabdfl | ok, last items... |
| 06:46 | mako | kernel team |
| 06:46 | mdz | fabbione: kernel team |
| 06:46 | bluefoxicy | sabdfl: Great, now I have to learn how to do this. |
| 06:46 | fabbione | yes |
| 06:46 | sabdfl | Riddell: you're in the spotlight |
| 06:46 | fabbione | we need a kernel team |
| 06:47 | Kamion | there's an item before Riddell |
| 06:47 | fabbione | the kernel starts to be simply too big for one person |
| === mako is actually somewhat surprised we don't already have a kernel team |
| 06:47 | elmo | who needs a team when you have FABBIONE |
| 06:47 | sabdfl | we will hire a kernel lead |
| 06:47 | fabbione | mainly we need 3 figures inside the team |
| 06:47 | sabdfl | all suggestions welcome |
| 06:47 | OddAbe19 | I'll be willing to help with that section if we do get one |
| 06:47 | fabbione | a) a leader |
| 06:47 | fabbione | b) porters |
| === lamont would like to be on the kernel team. not sure how the time issues work out thouhg.. |
| 06:47 | sivang | elmo: and he is making a daily sacrafice of gpg keys :) |
| 06:47 | fabbione | c) external drivers maintainers |
| 06:47 | mdz | fabbione: porting needs should be handled by the architecture/porting teams |
| 06:48 | mdz | including the kernel |
| 06:48 | fabbione | mdz: yes. i am only defining the figures |
| 06:48 | fabbione | not to who assigning the tasks |
| 06:48 | OddAbe19 | i'll be willing to do recompils and tests if you need me to |
| 06:48 | ogra_ | fabbione: i raise my hand as a tester.... |
| 06:48 | sabdfl | would the lead person not also track down external drivers and keep them up to date? |
| 06:48 | fabbione | there are several tasks that needs to be shared across the team |
| 06:48 | OddAbe19 | little bit of help helps |
| 06:48 | mako | well, perhaps the best thing is to create a team now plus a list |
| 06:48 | fabbione | sabdfl: it's too much.. |
| 06:48 | fabbione | please guys let me finish one second what i have been thinking about |
| 06:48 | fabbione | so that you can have an idea |
| 06:49 | mako | fabbione can take the helm now and when when we get a new lead, he can pass the reigns |
| 06:49 | fabbione | and than proposals |
| 06:49 | mako | fabbione: ok go ahead |
| 06:49 | fabbione | the tasks are several: |
| 06:49 | fabbione | a) lead the team |
| 06:49 | fabbione | b) track upstream |
| 06:49 | fabbione | c) bug triage |
| 06:49 | fabbione | d) track LKML |
| 06:49 | fabbione | e) porting |
| 06:49 | fabbione | f) track external drivers |
| === mdz tries to prevent himself from having any ideas until fabbione is finished ;-) |
| 06:50 | fabbione | g) packaging stuff |
| 06:50 | fabbione | now |
| 06:50 | pitti | h) security updates ? |
| 06:50 | fabbione | the main issue is the volume of traffic generated by upstreams |
| 06:50 | fabbione | pitti: right... that's included in a) |
| 06:50 | OddAbe19 | pitti, that would be letter c |
| 06:51 | lamont | fabbione: security updates != lead |
| 06:51 | dilinger | fabbione: you're referring to "upstream" as not only lkml, but linux-scsi, the architecture specific lists, etc? |
| 06:51 | fabbione | so we need dedicated people for at least a) b and d) c and f) |
| 06:51 | ogra_ | dilinger: think nvidia/ati |
| 06:51 | fabbione | lamont: it might as well be... since it requires a certain level of trustness |
| 06:51 | fabbione | dilinger: i mean all kind of upstreams we have now |
| 06:51 | lamont | fabbione: can be trivially delegated to c, given trust |
| 06:52 | lamont | and c is going to trip over them anyway |
| 06:52 | fabbione | dilinger: think of mISDN, linux, linux-scsi, linux-net, nvidia, inotify |
| 06:52 | dilinger | ok |
| 06:52 | fabbione | clearly e) must be delegated to the different porting teams |
| 06:52 | sabdfl | i have budget for one full time person to lead this |
| 06:53 | fabbione | sabdfl: what we really miss is the upstream link |
| 06:53 | sabdfl | i've mailed linus asking him if he would recommend someone who has the necessary skills to keep up with upstream, and be a reasonable merge partner for andrew morton and linus |
| === mvo_ needs to leave now, sorry |
| 06:53 | fabbione | that takes care of tracking upstream* |
| 06:53 | fabbione | sabdfl: rocking |
| 06:53 | sabdfl | i'm happy to have interested people get in touch with me directly |
| 06:54 | fabbione | the other stuff clearly has to be community related |
| 06:54 | sabdfl | i would like to publish the work this team does as a broader community kernel effort |
| 06:54 | sabdfl | i think it's not just us that are frustrated by the current kernel release situation |
| 06:54 | sivang | sabdfl: +1 ROCKING |
| 06:54 | Mithrandir | sabdfl: something like having an official ubuntu patchline against the kernel.org kernels? |
| 06:54 | mvo_ | cool! |
| 06:54 | fabbione | right now i am basically handlinh all of the above |
| 06:54 | Kamion | the lack of releases for security updates is something that has a lot of people bothered |
| 06:54 | fabbione | and it is more than evident that i am not enough |
| 06:55 | sabdfl | -uc (ubuntu community) kernel on kernel.org, for example |
| 06:55 | pitti | Kamion: this was discussed on vendor-sec recently, btw |
| 06:55 | mako | great |
| 06:55 | fabbione | sabdfl: i don't mind to start leading this team until we will not get a fulltime upstream guy |
| 06:55 | fabbione | but i clearly need help |
| 06:55 | fabbione | so now i am calling for volunteers |
| 06:55 | mako | fabbione: great. that was my suggestion |
| 06:55 | mako | fabbione: i can help you with that |
| 06:55 | sabdfl | herbert was dong more than i was aware of |
| 06:56 | fabbione | to cover some of the positions mentioned above |
| 06:56 | dilinger | note that a tree like that (security and obvious fixes only) is something i already intend to do for debian |
| 06:56 | sabdfl | erm... doing |
| 06:56 | bluefoxicy | <fabbione> c) bug triage |
| 06:56 | bluefoxicy | <fabbione> d) track LKML |
| 06:56 | bluefoxicy | Does every distribution track vulns themselves? |
| 06:56 | pitti | bluefoxicy: this is done by me mainly |
| 06:56 | sabdfl | if we can appoint someone quickly, fine, otherwise perhaps we should get a short term contract in place with herbert? |
| 06:56 | mako | fabbione: lets talk after the meeting or tomorrow about putting out a call for help in relation to the kernel |
| 06:56 | sabdfl | he's of course a candidate for the full time post |
| 06:56 | pitti | bluefoxicy: I usually keep track of vulns and distribute patches |
| 06:56 | bluefoxicy | pitti: is there a central repository for patches that you get them from, or do you have to look for them floating on the net? |
| 06:57 | fabbione | mako: i would suggest after the meeting |
| 06:57 | pitti | bluefoxicy: I get them mainly from vendor-sec |
| 06:57 | mako | fabbione: great |
| 06:57 | sabdfl | i think we need fabbione free to make wonderful things happen in userland for hoary |
| 06:57 | fabbione | mako: because we don't have too much time |
| 06:57 | bluefoxicy | pitti: ok, so then there's no void to fill |
| 06:57 | mako | fabbione: sounds good |
| 06:57 | pitti | bluefoxicy: however, recently we got many patches from dilinger too |
| 06:57 | fabbione | sabdfl: :) |
| 06:57 | mako | dilinger: great :) |
| 06:57 | mako | to sort of summarize |
| 06:57 | mako | i think we can move ahead with a team right now |
| 06:57 | mako | fabbione has listed the things that are in teh domain of tha tteam |
| 06:58 | mako | some of those things we'll have a handle on right now, others we can ask for help on |
| 06:58 | mdz | bluefoxicy: and there is a void to fill regarding public discussion of the patching process |
| 06:58 | fabbione | mako: i also have more detailed suggestions but we will keep them for after this meeting |
| 06:58 | mako | and some may have to wait for the full-time kernel ninja |
| 06:58 | mdz | bluefoxicy: which is what I would like for security-review@l.u.c to become |
| 06:58 | mako | who is coming and who should take the reigns from fabbione |
| 06:58 | fabbione | so whoever is interested in helping the ubuntu kernl please stay after the meeting in this chan |
| === mako nods |
| 06:58 | sabdfl | ok, riddell? |
| 06:59 | mako | two newmaintainres up for CC approval |
| 06:59 | Riddell | hello |
| 06:59 | ogra_ | hi :) |
| 06:59 | bluefoxicy | mdz: well I was thinking, Gentoo patches their kernels with secfixes, and suse probably does, and mandrake, and debian, and ubuntu, redhat, everyone has to do it. Just checking to see if work was being repeted |
| 06:59 | pitti | dilinger: do you happen to be interested? :-) |
| 06:59 | mako | numero uno is Riddell: a kmaintainer referred by amu |
| === hno73 [~Henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 06:59 | ogra_ | kmaintainer ? |
| 06:59 | Riddell | I'd like to be a maintainer so I can better help with the KDE Ubuntu stuff |
| 06:59 | pitti | bluefoxicy: this coordination is mainly done on vendor-sec, that's its purpose |
| 06:59 | sabdfl | i'm happy for riddell to be approved as a member. i guess under the new rules any of us can also agree to him uploading to universe, right? |
| 06:59 | Kamion | I think Riddell can be approved under normal Kubuntu rules? |
| 06:59 | mdz | bluefoxicy: vendor-sec is the primary forum for that collaboration, but in my opinion there is more to be done |
| 07:00 | Riddell | ogra_: just amu's little joke (I hope:) |
| 07:00 | ogra_ | hehe |
| 07:00 | dilinger | pitti: yes; i guess we'll discuss after this (i need to run out for 20 mins now anyways) |
| 07:00 | pitti | bluefoxicy: so usually the work of crafting patches is not duplicated |
| 07:00 | bluefoxicy | mdz, pitti: *nod* ok. |
| 07:00 | sabdfl | so done |
| === mako gives the thumbs up |
| 07:00 | sabdfl | elmo, please put riddell on the list for universe / multiverse right away |
| 07:00 | mdz | it looks to me like Riddell is interested in full maintainer status as well |
| 07:01 | mako | ig |
| 07:01 | sabdfl | isn';t that a TB approval? |
| 07:01 | ogra_ | as i am, else i would have gone for MOTU |
| === haggai gives thumbs up for universe/multiverse for riddel |
| 07:01 | haggai | ; |
| 07:01 | haggai | l |
| 07:01 | ogra_ | but it starts with member first |
| 07:01 | sabdfl | according to the mataro rules? |
| 07:01 | mako | right, should be on next weeks TB agenda as well |
| 07:01 | mdz | ogra_: it is intended that MOTU be a gateway for full maintainership |
| 07:01 | mako | sabdfl: yes |
| 07:01 | mdz | ogra_: rather than an alternative |
| 07:01 | sabdfl | do we have enough tb folks here to approve right away? |
| 07:02 | ogra_ | mdz: i know, but there is not very much i'm interested in |
| 07:02 | mdz | ogra_: there is not much you are interested in in the whole of universe? :-o |
| 07:02 | ogra_ | mdz: well...not as exiting as main |
| 07:02 | sabdfl | if it's not absolutely clear, then ogra_, riddell would need to make the case at the tb, and possibly start with universe |
| === fabbione brb |
| 07:02 | mdz | sabdfl: we have 2/3 at least, 3/3 if Keybuk is awake |
| 07:02 | sabdfl | exciting for us? |
| 07:02 | elmo | sabdfl: ok |
| === Kamion is also happy with ogra as a member; he's already done a good deal, and we all met him at Mataro |
| 07:03 | sabdfl | is anyone on tb/cc/motu happy to vouch for ogra_ w.r.t. universe? |
| 07:03 | sivang | mdz: I'm the same as ogra on this, currently interested in g-s-t wrt maintainership. |
| 07:03 | OddAbe19 | i would really like to help with development of packages for hoary... try to help keep them recent |
| 07:03 | mdz | sabdfl: universe, yes |
| 07:04 | elmo | what mdz said |
| 07:04 | sabdfl | ok, elmo, ogra_ also for universe |
| === mako happy with ogra_ as a member too |
| === amu would be very happy with Riddell, i suggest we start with universe |
| 07:04 | sabdfl | are we done? |
| 07:04 | mdz | shouldn't MOTU folks be members as well? |
| 07:04 | mdz | as a rule? |
| 07:04 | sabdfl | any other business? |
| 07:04 | ogra_ | great, that honors me, thanks all |
| 07:04 | sabdfl | mdz: absoloodle |
| 07:04 | mdz | dilinger: are you interested in becoming an Ubuntu maintainer? |
| 07:04 | Mithrandir | mdz: he had to run out for twenty minutes, he said. |
| 07:04 | mdz | ah |
| 07:05 | Riddell | it would be good if the NewDevelopersAndMaintainers wiki page said what the difference between member, committer and maintainer is |
| 07:05 | sabdfl | ogra_, Riddell, please could you guys digitally sign a copy of the code of conduct (mako, might need tweaking for this purpose) and send it to mako? |
| 07:05 | elmo | azeem: ? |
| 07:05 | mdz | Riddell: mako is on it |
| 07:05 | azeem | eh? |
| 07:05 | ogra_ | sabdfl: sure :) |
| 07:05 | sabdfl | Riddell: member is someone who's made a substantial contribution in any field, and signed the code of conduct |
| 07:05 | mako | digitally or non-digitally is fine |
| 07:05 | pitti | mdz: in case it has any weight, I would vouch for dilinger |
| 07:05 | elmo | azeem: did you have any interest in becoming a MOTU? |
| 07:06 | mako | gpg or fax/scan |
| 07:06 | elmo | 'cos IIRC you were the one putting ubuntu packages on p.d.o :) |
| 07:06 | mdz | pitti: he needs to apply first ;-) |
| 07:06 | ogra_ | mako: how do i sign a email non-digitally ? |
| 07:06 | mako | ogra_: ;) |
| 07:06 | sivang | mdz: I want to sign the CoC although not yet applying for maintainership :) |
| 07:06 | ogra_ | heh |
| 07:06 | mdz | ogra_: you print it and write your signature on it |
| 07:06 | azeem | yeah, but my work is done for multisync. I guess I'll apply at some point, but I don't plan to do much right now |
| 07:06 | mdz | sivang: you don't want to be a member? |
| 07:06 | sivang | mdz: I do! |
| 07:06 | sabdfl | Riddell: committer / uploader does just that, and can either be for a subset (universe, or a single package for example) or the whole distro |
| 07:06 | elmo | azeem: ok, just checking |
| 07:07 | mako | sivang: you already are! |
| 07:07 | mako | sivang: that happened at the last meeting |
| 07:07 | sabdfl | committer / uploader is determined by the tb |
| 07:07 | sivang | mdz: just not a maintainer yet, am I not a memebr wrt country team, doc team, etc? |
| 07:07 | Riddell | sabdfl, mako: copy and paste from http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct ? |
| 07:07 | sabdfl | only the uploaders vote to confirm tb appointments |
| 07:07 | mako | Riddell: yes |
| 07:07 | mdz | sivang: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers |
| 07:07 | sivang | mdz: sorry, this is for mak |
| 07:07 | sabdfl | Riddell: good enough, we'll polish it over time |
| 07:07 | sivang | mdz: mako |
| 07:07 | mdz | sivang: being aa member means acknowledging the CoC, etc. |
| 07:08 | mako | sivang: member is a member. you're not approved to upload packages but that is for a different group to decide |
| 07:08 | sivang | mdz: ah cool :) |
| 07:08 | mako | alright. so did we get CC approval for Riddell and ogra_, it seems yes |
| 07:08 | sivang | mako: right |
| === fabbione thumbs up for both |
| 07:08 | mdz | sivang: being a member, you should have already made the statement about the CoC, if I understand the process correctly |
| 07:08 | mako | elmo? |
| === sivang thumbs up for both also |
| 07:08 | Keybuk | mdz: am awake, honest :p |
| 07:08 | sabdfl | hold on a sec |
| 07:09 | sivang | mdz: no body told me that I had to sign it or anything :) |
| 07:09 | mdz | sivang: you were present in Mataro when it was decided :-) |
| 07:09 | sabdfl | mataro rules said the cc should approve a member, right? |
| 07:09 | mako | sivang: but your involvement predates that |
| 07:09 | mako | sabdfl: yes |
| 07:09 | mdz | Community Council votes whether a person can become a member. |
| 07:09 | elmo | mako: for MOTU? yeah |
| 07:09 | sabdfl | but we just said any individual tb/cc/motu could approve a universe committer/uploader |
| 07:09 | mako | elmo: for ubuntu membership |
| 07:10 | sabdfl | that;s a bit inconsistent |
| 07:10 | elmo | oh |
| 07:10 | mdz | sabdfl: universe uploader is a step above member |
| 07:10 | sivang | mako: ok, so I'm cool with the CC ? |
| 07:10 | mdz | hmm |
| 07:10 | elmo | I thought the plan was to make it a flow chart thing? |
| 07:10 | elmo | like member, universe, maintainer? |
| 07:10 | mako | sabdfl: i'm not sure we specified how universe uploaders would be handled but it seems that TB/MOTU would be the sane places |
| 07:10 | mdz | elmo: yes |
| 07:10 | mako | sivang: yes |
| 07:10 | mdz | ideally, universe folks would be approved from the pool of members |
| 07:10 | elmo | so how come we skipped from MOTU straight to maintainer? |
| 07:11 | mdz | but we want to fast-track them |
| 07:11 | mako | sabdfl: we didn't mention MOTU as an approval step in mataro |
| 07:11 | mdz | so there is a conflict |
| 07:11 | sabdfl | mako: i was trying to fast track, for efficiency, and saying that any individual TB/CC/MOTU could approve a request for elmo to give a person upload to universe |
| 07:11 | haggai | uh, if member needs CC and universe>member, that still leaves CC as possible bottleneck? |
| 07:11 | mako | sabdfl: do you want the CC approving uploaders? |
| 07:11 | mdz | haggai: exactly |
| 07:11 | sabdfl | haggai: exactly |
| 07:11 | haggai | ah, ok |
| 07:11 | mdz | haggai: that's what we need to address |
| 07:12 | mako | i'm ok with saying it's the MOTU's decision |
| 07:12 | sabdfl | perhaps this is acceptable pre-hoary? |
| 07:12 | mako | and that the cc or tb can challenge any of those decisions |
| 07:12 | sabdfl | just to bootstrap a good community for universe? |
| 07:12 | haggai | sounds reasonable |
| 07:12 | sabdfl | we should still require a digitally signed coc for uploaders to universe |
| === mako nods |
| 07:13 | haggai | yes |
| 07:13 | sabdfl | elmo: perhaps you could get that before turning on the permission? |
| === zul [~chuck@zul.developer.gentoo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting |
| 07:13 | elmo | sure, could be part of the "send me your key" |
| 07:13 | mako | alright, sounds good |
| 07:13 | elmo | what are we doing about trust paths and keys, btw? anything? |
| 07:13 | mdz | elmo: we need to have a trust path |
| 07:13 | sabdfl | ok, so what we are saying is that, until hoary, one can become a member by signing the coc, sending that to elmo along with a signed approval from any one of the tb/motu/cc individuals |
| 07:14 | mako | mdz: signed by a key in the strongly connected set |
| 07:14 | sabdfl | and that also gives upload to universe/multiverse |
| 07:14 | elmo | mdz: that's a requirement? |
| 07:14 | mdz | mako: sure, that's easy, right? |
| 07:14 | smurfix | mako: agree |
| 07:14 | mako | yes, not hard at all |
| 07:14 | mdz | elmo: I think it should be, don't you? |
| 07:14 | smurfix | Anybody else, we decide when they come to us |
| 07:14 | sabdfl | yes, we can do something with a notary copy of id documents etc |
| === mako nods |
| 07:15 | mako | but getting a key from the SCS should be easy for almost everybody |
| 07:15 | sabdfl | in other words i';ll cover the cost to extend the web of trust to include that person if we dont have a good way to do it otherwise |
| 07:15 | sivang | mdz: just recalled signing the CoC, memroy fading problems :) |
| 07:15 | elmo | mdz: *shrug* sure, happy to, but we've had problems getting employees to get trusted keys, never mind random community guys who might be from like, Canberaa or somewhere equally outrageiously isolated and estranged from civilization |
| 07:15 | elmo | sabdfl: k |
| 07:15 | mdz | elmo: we're talking about the strongly connected set, which is enormous and geographically pervasive, right? |
| 07:15 | haggai | could we use a wider set? accept e.g. debian signs too? |
| 07:16 | mako | elmo: there are things like biglumber.com which are making ths problem easier |
| 07:16 | mdz | elmo: as opposed to "needs to be signed by a key in the existing keyring" |
| 07:16 | sabdfl | i think we should get a quick round of approvals or dissent from the cc and tb folsk present w.r.t. the new universe process |
| 07:16 | smurfix | haggai: ? They're already in the SCS |
| 07:16 | Kamion | haggai: strongly connected set is the global one rather than just our Ubuntu keyring |
| 07:16 | haggai | ah, sorry |
| 07:16 | mdz | sabdfl: so two things, right: |
| 07:16 | sabdfl | kamion, mako, elmo? mdz, keybuk? |
| 07:16 | Kamion | the Ubuntu keyring is well cross-signed, but still |
| === mako think it sounds sane |
| 07:16 | mdz | 1) accelerated membership process which exchanges CC approval for approval by any one of the set of people you named |
| 07:17 | mdz | 2) the same group of people can approve uploaders to universe |
| 07:17 | mdz | yes? |
| 07:17 | elmo | mdz: yes, we use the global SCS as a fall back in Debian - there are still people who can't be validated that way.. if sabdfl's happy to go with the notary thing, and everyone else is happy with that, it's moot |
| 07:17 | Kamion | 1) only for people who are on track for 2)? |
| 07:17 | mdz | elmo: ok |
| 07:17 | Kamion | if so, I'm ok with that |
| 07:17 | Kamion | although |
| 07:17 | mdz | likewise |
| 07:17 | Kamion | I'd like it to be approval from two people rather than one |
| 07:18 | sabdfl | mdz: yes |
| 07:18 | mako | Kamion: nice |
| 07:18 | Kamion | I know myself that I've made mistakes due to personal bias |
| 07:18 | mdz | it's fine with me either way; it's a good list of folks |
| 07:18 | Kamion | so a cross-check is good |
| 07:18 | sabdfl | let's vote +1 or -1 on the idea, including kamion's suggestion of two people |
| 07:18 | mdz | we just don't want to be bogged down in bureaucracy at this point |
| 07:18 | haggai | it does go through elmo too, although I'm happy to go for 2 approvals before |
| 07:18 | mako | it shouldn't even provide a major stumbling block and is ee the good |
| 07:18 | sabdfl | +1 |
| 07:18 | mdz | +1 |
| 07:18 | Keybuk | +1 |
| 07:18 | Kamion | +1 |
| 07:19 | mako | +1 |
| 07:19 | mako | WINNAR |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | ok, that's plenty |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | thanks guys |
| 07:19 | elmo | FLAWLESS VICTORY |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | abstainer |
| === mako sighs |
| 07:19 | mdz | mako: let's get together after the meeting and write it up proper |
| 07:19 | mdz | mako: along with the announcement email |
| 07:19 | mako | yes |
| 07:19 | mdz | are we finished here? |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | thanks for the stamina guys |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | i'm all done |
| 07:19 | Kamion | ok, close the record-length CC meeting and let the kernel guys carry on? |
| 07:19 | mako | will summarize again of course |
| 07:19 | elmo | hang on, sorry, what are we doing with members? |
| 07:19 | fabbione | sabdfl: thanks :-) |
| 07:19 | sabdfl | any other business? |
| 07:19 | elmo | anything that involes me?, i.e. keys |
| 07:20 | Treenaks | could the next meeting be a bit later? |
| 07:20 | mako | mdz: i've got a few to talk to the kernel guys too |
| 07:20 | Kamion | members don't involve keys AIUI |
| 07:20 | mdz | Treenaks: ++ :-) |
| 07:20 | elmo | ok |
| 07:20 | Kamion | MOTU does |
| 07:20 | fabbione | Treenaks: -- |
| 07:20 | Treenaks | my boss doesn't like me leaving early (or staying long doing non-work stuff) |